Jiang Wei, scared of death?

Join the Romance of the Three Kingdoms discussion with our resident Scholars. Topics relating to the novel and history are both welcome. Don't forget to check the Forum Rules before posting.
Kongming’s Archives: Romance of the Three Kingdoms
Three Kingdoms Officer Biographies
Three Kingdoms Officer Encyclopedia
Scholars of Shen Zhou Search Tool

Unread postby PrimeMinister Bu Zhi » Thu Aug 26, 2004 12:39 am

What I think is that Shu was built with domestics, and concentrated on it, but kept most of the old Han system. While Wu and Wei focused on making a new system, and put much more effort into domestics. I think Shu was also into government, after Zhuge died, they had people who focused on reform and few campiagns and did very well for their time, but soon, they all died(Fei Yi, Jiang Wan, Dong Yun) and then Jiang Wei got control and ruined all their progress,
Lu Xun- "After much observation of how Liu Bei had been leading troops in his career, I see that he had more failures than success; hence, he is not much of a threat."
PrimeMinister Bu Zhi
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 996
Joined: Sat Jul 24, 2004 9:22 pm
Location: Jiao

Unread postby Six_and_Up » Thu Aug 26, 2004 12:39 am

Please tell me where the heck people get this idea that Jiang Wei was ruining Shu beyond all repair. Please give me evidence that states Shu's economy was in ruin and its people were straving because of his campaigning. Jiang Wei was hated? By whom? Please you've got no evidence that other than that Zhang Yi, Huang Hao and Qiao Zhou held a grudge against Jiang Wei. Please don't say Liao Hua because he was only critical against Wei's campaigning and not actually of the man himself.

I'm sure its just real conveinent for people to blame the fall on Shu on three people- Liu Shan, Jiang Wei and Huang Hao. No evidence exists to say that Jiang Wei's campaigning hurt Shu in the long term. Shu was a military state the moment Liu Bei took it over. No one sought to change this not Jiang Wan, Fei Yi or anyone else in charge of military affairs at Hanzhong. Jiang Wei was maintaining the status quo was ensuring that Shu could withstand a invasion from Wei. Shu had shown for thirty years that it could properly sustain an military that consisted of 1/10 of its population.

On Shu's economy I find it strange that people put blame on Jiang Wei and not whoever was minister of argiculture or whoever else was in charge of the economics of Shu. The army could provide for itself, as shown by the fact that Jiang Wei had his army stationed at Tazhong growing wheat. If your gonna say that Shu's civilians were suffering and not back it up with any evidence please at leat blame the man in chagre of agriculture. Jiang Wei was no prime minister he was at the most in chagre of internal and external military affairs (read SGZ bio).
Currently playing: Dragon Quest VIII
User avatar
Six_and_Up
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 900
Joined: Thu Oct 16, 2003 10:35 am
Location: Sydney Australia

Unread postby boogiepopmeup » Thu Aug 26, 2004 2:28 am

Zhuge Liang's campiagns had a big chance and Liang had much better plans and strategems. Jiang Wei on the other hand was a failure in every campaign.

well i fail to see how this is true since zhuge consulted jiang wei during all his campaigns. zhuge launched 5 campaigns in 6 years, never waiting for opportunity. jiang wei, on the other hand, waited for opportunities to present themselves. not to mention jiang wei's northern campaigns were more successful than zhuge liang's.
User avatar
boogiepopmeup
Master
 
Posts: 255
Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2004 3:08 pm

Unread postby Lu Kang » Thu Aug 26, 2004 2:33 am

Six_and_Up wrote:Please tell me where the heck people get this idea that Jiang Wei was ruining Shu beyond all repair. Please give me evidence that states Shu's economy was in ruin and its people were straving because of his campaigning. Jiang Wei was hated? By whom? Please you've got no evidence that other than that Zhang Yi, Huang Hao and Qiao Zhou held a grudge against Jiang Wei. Please don't say Liao Hua because he was only critical against Wei's campaigning and not actually of the man himself.


Where's the proof that Zhang Yi, Qiao Zhou, or Liao Hua had a grudge against Jiang Wei? They were stating quite clear facts that the campaigns were hurting Shu. Even Fei Yi was against the constant compaigning. And yes, Liao Hua is quite pertant because he directly goes against what Jiang Wei si doing which is cmapigning.

I'm sure its just real conveinent for people to blame the fall on Shu on three people- Liu Shan, Jiang Wei and Huang Hao. No evidence exists to say that Jiang Wei's campaigning hurt Shu in the long term. Shu was a military state the moment Liu Bei took it over. No one sought to change this not Jiang Wan, Fei Yi or anyone else in charge of military affairs at Hanzhong. Jiang Wei was maintaining the status quo was ensuring that Shu could withstand a invasion from Wei. Shu had shown for thirty years that it could properly sustain an military that consisted of 1/10 of its population.


If you read Qiao Zhou's bio you'll see that Zhou is not saying that attacking is killing Shu but the constant attacking that Jiang Wei is doing. IT hurts Shu and exhausts the people. Jiang Wei was destroying SHu by conastantly attacking. When he was utterly defeated once he lost some where from 20 - 40+ % of the ENTIRE Shu army. That's a huge loss. What does Jiang Wei do the next year? He launches another large campaign. The man doesn't care about resources or what the people think. He just goes launching campaigns every which year. Multiple other officers were against but yet he still continued.
无口为天,有口为吴,君临万邦,天子之都
Historical Post
Lu Kang
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 787
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2003 1:04 am

Unread postby Jiangji » Thu Aug 26, 2004 2:41 am

Lu Kang wrote: If you read Qiao Zhou's bio you'll see that Zhou is not saying that attacking is killing Shu but the constant attacking that Jiang Wei is doing. IT hurts Shu and exhausts the people. Jiang Wei was destroying SHu by conastantly attacking. When he was utterly defeated once he lost some where from 20 - 40+ % of the ENTIRE Shu army. That's a huge loss. What does Jiang Wei do the next year? He launches another large campaign. The man doesn't care about resources or what the people think. He just goes launching campaigns every which year. Multiple other officers were against but yet he still continued.


Personally, I don't believe jiang wei lost 20-40% in his northen campaign. If this is true, there is little population left for Yizhou and Wei could have conquer it long time ago. He is a military man in charge only in military affair not administration of the government. He can't order around what policy should be adopted to improve the shu economy.
Detach from emotions and desires; get rid of any fixations.
User avatar
Jiangji
Master
 
Posts: 248
Joined: Sun Jul 04, 2004 12:15 am
Location: Canada

Unread postby PrimeMinister Bu Zhi » Thu Aug 26, 2004 2:43 am

True. How does war not hurt state. It's all over the Art of War, the very manual that Jiang Wei never even looked at, because he directly defies it in many aspects.

War hurts the State. The people are poor and improvished and seek a new governement. The courts are corrupted due to constant corruption of the people. The officials are distrust worthy of each other, some hoping for a chance to surrender. This is all Jiang Wei's doing. Whose money does all that war drain? It's not from Jiang Wei's pocket, I can tell you that.
Lu Xun- "After much observation of how Liu Bei had been leading troops in his career, I see that he had more failures than success; hence, he is not much of a threat."
PrimeMinister Bu Zhi
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 996
Joined: Sat Jul 24, 2004 9:22 pm
Location: Jiao

Unread postby boogiepopmeup » Thu Aug 26, 2004 4:35 am

PrimeMinister Bu Zhi wrote:True. How does war not hurt state. It's all over the Art of War, the very manual that Jiang Wei never even looked at, because he directly defies it in many aspects.

War hurts the State. The people are poor and improvished and seek a new governement. The courts are corrupted due to constant corruption of the people. The officials are distrust worthy of each other, some hoping for a chance to surrender. This is all Jiang Wei's doing. Whose money does all that war drain? It's not from Jiang Wei's pocket, I can tell you that.

that's so wrong, it is not jiang wei's doing. all of jiang wei's campaigns are cleared by the emperor and his advisors. they allowed him to go to war. if it was hurting the state so much, why not tell him no?
User avatar
boogiepopmeup
Master
 
Posts: 255
Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2004 3:08 pm

Unread postby PrimeMinister Bu Zhi » Thu Aug 26, 2004 4:46 am

If he was such a brilliant strategist, why couldn't he understand that?
Lu Xun- "After much observation of how Liu Bei had been leading troops in his career, I see that he had more failures than success; hence, he is not much of a threat."
PrimeMinister Bu Zhi
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 996
Joined: Sat Jul 24, 2004 9:22 pm
Location: Jiao

Unread postby Lady Wu » Thu Aug 26, 2004 4:47 am

There is no direct evidence that the military hurt the state of Shu, or that Shu was in shambles. We simply don't have enough historical information from Shu due to their lack of an official history and archival department. However, if you know anything about military expenses, it doesn't take much to infer the toll that 40 years of constant large-scale military operations would have taken on Shu.

I just came across a quote from the Collection of Zhuge Liang's Writings as cited in the Song dynasty anthology Imperial Readings of the Taiping Reign (太平御览). The original Collection, compiled by Chen Shou, was lost, but parts of it survived in various literary anthologies such as that one.

Zhuge Liang wrote:今民贫国虚,决敌之资,唯仰锦耳。

Now, the people are poor and the state is depleted. The funds for fighting the enemy come solely from silk products

(Silk products from the Riverland area were world-famous, and were exported as far as to Central Asia via Southeast Asia by the middle of the Western Han.)

This is hitherto the best direct indication I can find of the financial circumstance in Shu and its relation to war.

Going back to Jiang Wei. I certainly have respect for the man for his preserverance and dedication to his cause. Ditto for Zhuge Liang. I only disagree with the implementation of their plans. In Jiang Wei's case, I just don't see any long term plans. The need to straighten out internal affairs before fighting abroad has been played down, but I do wonder what would happen even if he succeeded and took the north. Shu would still fall, since the government was not capable, and Jiang Wei did not have friends in the court. Sure, Huang Hao and Liu Shan were to be blamed, but Jiang Wei didn't seem to work on making friends in the state at all. You can't just fight and fight on the frontline and hope that your state will somehow prosper and gain hegemony. You need to first make sure that you have a backup, proper reinforcements and support, etc. This Jiang Wei did not do.

Compare him to Zhuge Liang. Zhuge Liang's memorials were full of advice to Liu Shan as to who to employ, and how to run the government. He did various reforms of the law in Shu, which earned him praise from Chen Shou. The importance of the balance of the court and the field is highlighted especially in his First Memorial. Jiang Wei, on the other hand, did not seem to care too much for that.

Of course, he was not entirely at fault. He was a military guy at heart anyway, while Zhuge Liang had mostly seen himself as a statesman (see his early aspirations and the reply at Longzhong). Furthermore, with the death of a few respected ministers from the Zhuge Liang era, Huang Hao became more powerful and the court fell into disarray. Perhaps if this was not the case, Jiang Wei's campaigns could be considered advisable. However, Jiang Wei seemed to be blind to all that (or chose not to deal with it), and continued to do his own thing. This disregard for the bigger picture is what causes me to consider his plans folly.
"Whatever you do, don't fall off the bridge! It'll be a pain to try to get back up again." - Private, DW 8
User avatar
Lady Wu
There's no better state than Wu
There's no better state than Wu
 
Posts: 12840
Joined: Mon Aug 26, 2002 2:35 am
Location: Wu-ere else?

Unread postby Po Hsing » Thu Aug 26, 2004 7:03 am

Lady Wu's posts mirror my sentiments exactly.

Sure, Jiang was not a civil administrator, he is a general, and cannot be blamed for the poor state of civil affairs.

However, decisions cannot be made in a vacuum. If he knows that things are not all well at the court, (probably the economy as well after so many years of war), then there is no business for him to be even asking to go to war.

One should right his own house before going out on some adverture. His actions exacerbated an already bad situation.
Po Hsing
Initiate
 
Posts: 64
Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2004 10:29 am

PreviousNext

Return to Sanguo Yanyi Symposium

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 1 guest

Copyright © 2002–2008 Kongming’s Archives. All Rights Reserved