Jiang Wei, scared of death?

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Unread postby PrimeMinister Bu Zhi » Wed Aug 25, 2004 3:52 pm

You know why people didn't cooperate with Jiang Wei, because they hated him for destroying the country. If Shu really was all military and no internal develoupment, then Liu Bei and Zhuge Liang are to blame for the downfall of Shu, as much as they are for the creation of it.

Constant war is not possible, but why did Jiang Wei do this then? It's Liu Shan's fualt for not stoping Jiang Wei, and it's Zhuge Liang's and Liu Bei's fualt for not considering that they won't be able to defeat Wei in so short time so they might as well build up for the future. Even if they beat Wei, without taking consideration into domestics, then it would just fall apart by rebellions, similair to Qin, or be destroyed by Wu. I don't know if what you say is true about the no-domestic policy, but if it is, then I hate Shu even more now, and I can't even consider Zhuge Liang as good officer in any field at all. All I can say is that if Shu was made only to defeat Wei, nothing more then that(along with never concentrating on domestics) I would say it is worse then even the tribes. Nanman is probably better.
Lu Xun- "After much observation of how Liu Bei had been leading troops in his career, I see that he had more failures than success; hence, he is not much of a threat."
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Unread postby Freefall » Wed Aug 25, 2004 5:01 pm

You know BZ, for someone who is probably not half a man most of these historical figures were, you sure are highly critical and quick to insult them. I don't care who you like or hate(though it doesn't make a lot of sense to hate people who did nothing against you), but what is annoying to see is someone, like you, calling these people dumb, stupid, failure, etc... and insult them. It is like seeing Huang Hao calling Zhuge Liang a failure. Until you are better than them, you shouldn't be insulting anyone. It is just not fitting.
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Unread postby Jiangji » Wed Aug 25, 2004 5:04 pm

Freefall wrote:You know BZ, for someone who is probably not half a man most of these historical figures were, you sure are highly critical and quick to insult them. I don't care who you like or hate(though it doesn't make a lot of sense to hate people who did nothing against you), but what is annoying to see is someone, like you, calling these people dumb, stupid, failure, etc... and insult them. It is like seeing Huang Hao calling Zhuge Liang a failure. Until you are better than them, you shouldn't be insulting anyone. It is just not fitting.


Personally, everyone have their own view. It won't be intresting if there is no argument.
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Unread postby PrimeMinister Bu Zhi » Wed Aug 25, 2004 5:20 pm

What I said is that Shu is horrible and so are Liu Bei and Zhuge Liang if they focused only on defeating Wei and not on domestic affairs. I don't think that's true though, Jiangji. But if it is, my opinion stays.
Lu Xun- "After much observation of how Liu Bei had been leading troops in his career, I see that he had more failures than success; hence, he is not much of a threat."
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Unread postby Jiangji » Wed Aug 25, 2004 5:33 pm

PrimeMinister Bu Zhi wrote:What I said is that Shu is horrible and so are Liu Bei and Zhuge Liang if they focused only on defeating Wei and not on domestic affairs. I don't think that's true though, Jiangji. But if it is, my opinion stays.


I think what they did is to defeat the Wei quickly and revive Han dynasty. They don't want spent too much time on development of shu. It only use as temporarily base. As the wei fall, they may be move to central china just like Liu bang. This is my personal opinion.
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Unread postby PrimeMinister Bu Zhi » Wed Aug 25, 2004 6:03 pm

But why, not only would Shu be improvished but Wei would as well. It would be just like Qin all over agian. I don't think that's the plan. They wouldn't want to destroy the country just to destroy Wei. That's stupid. Also, Wu would wipe them out. Everyone will defect. If that is the plan and Shu conquers Wei, then Wu will be superior, due to domestic advancements and easily conquer Shu.
Lu Xun- "After much observation of how Liu Bei had been leading troops in his career, I see that he had more failures than success; hence, he is not much of a threat."
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Unread postby Jiangji » Wed Aug 25, 2004 9:44 pm

PrimeMinister Bu Zhi wrote:But why, not only would Shu be improvished but Wei would as well. It would be just like Qin all over agian. I don't think that's the plan. They wouldn't want to destroy the country just to destroy Wei. That's stupid. Also, Wu would wipe them out. Everyone will defect. If that is the plan and Shu conquers Wei, then Wu will be superior, due to domestic advancements and easily conquer Shu.


No. It were never mean to improvished the country. The main problem for shu is lack of long term planning and development. The main function of the administration is to provide supply of troops and recruitment neccesary for the warfare. This doesn't mean that it will destroy their country as you see the mongol, nanman and other northen tribe. The mongol are also military stronger but they focus very little on internal development .Still, they can still survive very long and conquer vast territory. The Shu would want to defeat the wei and then focus on internal development. This is quite logical. Sima Yan carry out disarmament after unify the entire China.
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Unread postby PrimeMinister Bu Zhi » Wed Aug 25, 2004 9:50 pm

Yes, but the tribes raided for riches, not conquer, raid and conquer are different. I don't think Shu lacked long term planning though. I think, they actually ment to defeat Wei and make Yizhou a better place.
Lu Xun- "After much observation of how Liu Bei had been leading troops in his career, I see that he had more failures than success; hence, he is not much of a threat."
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Unread postby Jiangji » Wed Aug 25, 2004 10:06 pm

PrimeMinister Bu Zhi wrote:Yes, but the tribes raided for riches, not conquer, raid and conquer are different. I don't think Shu lacked long term planning though. I think, they actually ment to defeat Wei and make Yizhou a better place.


There is lots of tribe actually do conquer. The mongol conquer vast territory including China and Europe. The Xiongnu actually invade China during the Han and Jin era. Jurchen tribe conquer China establish the Qing dynasty and rule it for 267 years. Liao established by the Qidan come conquer northen China. If you compare the administration of shu to wu and Wei, there is a difference. The Wu has attempt to reform the structure of the government while the shu maintain quite a basic type. The Shu did want to make Yizhou a better place but does not put too much emphasis on it.
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Unread postby Freefall » Wed Aug 25, 2004 10:19 pm

Personally, everyone have their own view. It won't be intresting if there is no argument.


It's fine to have opinions about events and people, but we shouldn't be calling them stupid, loser, or insulting them. We shouldn't be so harsh on judging historical figures either. We got to remember that we have history to look back to and see the result after things has happened, these people didn't. Beside, who here can honestly said that they could have done a better job than what most of these historical figures did?
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