Jiang Wei, scared of death?

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Unread postby Liu Pi » Sun Aug 22, 2004 4:46 pm

The worst thing is that as the tide was turning Jiang Wei was called back to Cheng Du. Jiang Wei drained Shu's resources in his attept to take the north but at least they went out fighting (unlike Wu). Sort of.
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Unread postby Sima Hui » Sun Aug 22, 2004 4:50 pm

Hey PM Bu Zhi, give Jiang Wei some credit. He was either unlucky, betrayed, or that stupid Liu Shan recalled him. If his generals "hated him" then they'd defect. He besieged Sima Zhao on Tielongshan and nearly killed him. He forced Sima Shi to witdraw using the bows that Zhuge Liang invented and he repeatedly defeated Deng Ai in two campaigns but was recalled. This is from the novel, but the afterword points out that most of the last 16 chapters are historical.

I think he was a little obessive, but that's dedication and loyalty for you. :wink:
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Unread postby PrimeMinister Bu Zhi » Sun Aug 22, 2004 4:52 pm

In the novel he deserves credit, but in the SGZ, he never won his battles and Wei would always beat him. And the Shu officials hated him so much they planned to assasignate him, but Jiang Wei found out so he never returned to Chengdu(meaning he is scared of death).
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Unread postby Sima Hui » Sun Aug 22, 2004 4:57 pm

PrimeMinister Bu Zhi wrote:In the novel he deserves credit, but in the SGZ, he never won his battles and Wei would always beat him. And the Shu officials hated him so much they planned to assasignate him, but Jiang Wei found out so he never returned to Chengdu(meaning he is scared of death).


Nothing wrong with being scared of death. By the way, did you see my bit saying that a lot of the last 16 chapters is historical? Jiang Wei features most in this. Anyway, I still think that you're wrong about him being 100% to blame. Huang Hao ruined the kingdom by not even telling the Emperor that Wei had invaded Hanzhong. Did Jiang Wei tell Liu Shan to listen to a witch? Did he tell Liu Shan to live in vice and luxury? Did he tell Liu Shan to put all his trust in a eunuch? No to all of these.

Anyway, I don't think he was scared of death, unless it was that the Zhongyuan would not be recovered if he died.
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Unread postby PrimeMinister Bu Zhi » Sun Aug 22, 2004 5:00 pm

He isn't 100% to blame. Him, Liu Shan and Huang Hao all deserve equal blame. The generals not reinforceing him are because they hate him and they knew his campiagn won't do anything but waste the lives of the people, if he retreats sooner, then better. Zhang Yi hated him too but he fought his all for Shu. He even advised Jiang Wei that was he did was wrong and Wei didn't listen. Then he gave him strategic advise at the battle and Wei still didn't listen, in the end Jiang Wei lost and Zhang Yi died in battle.
Lu Xun- "After much observation of how Liu Bei had been leading troops in his career, I see that he had more failures than success; hence, he is not much of a threat."
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Unread postby Sima Hui » Sun Aug 22, 2004 5:03 pm

Where does it say that Zhang Yi hated him? I don't think that Jiang Wei should be put on a blame par with Huang Hao. Jiang Wei didn't slander people to the Emperor and get his friends promoted. Why didn't the generals oppose the campaign to the Emperor if they didn't like it? I think you're being a bit unfair to Jiang Wei.
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Unread postby Jiangji » Sun Aug 22, 2004 5:07 pm

PrimeMinister Bu Zhi wrote:The Qiang's betrayed him because he used them as hostages and forced them to fight Wei. The whole Liu Shan recalling him is all novel, and according to Deng Ai's and Chen Tai's SGZ bios, they beat Jiang Wei the old fasion way, outmanuevering and outsmarting. Both saw through all of Jiang's strategems and crushed his army in battle, this caused him to lose more then anything else.


I though the recall is from SGZ. I could have mix it up. However, here are some that cause his campaign to fail

1. Fei Wei frequently restricted Jiang Wei’s actions, rejected his proposals and did not allow him to mobilize more than 10,000 troops.

2. Hu ji broke his promise and does not send any reinforcement. Jiang Wei army suffer a crushing defeat at the Wei. His support was greatly affected by this.

3. Liu Shan is the person that causes the shu to fall. Jiang Wei warned Liu shan about Wei attack but he choose to ignore it and reject Jiang wei defensive measures.
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Unread postby PrimeMinister Bu Zhi » Sun Aug 22, 2004 5:43 pm

In Zhang Yi's SGZ bio, Zhang Yi said that the campiagns will fail. Jiang Wei began to hate Yi but took him on his campiagns anyway, Zhang Yi was unhappy because of this.
Lu Xun- "After much observation of how Liu Bei had been leading troops in his career, I see that he had more failures than success; hence, he is not much of a threat."
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Unread postby Exar Kun » Mon Aug 23, 2004 2:44 am

Jiang Wei's actions were correct as far as the future survival of Shu was concerned.
His chances of success however were very low.

That said though,a defensive strategy is one that would damn Shu upon his death,when no one else would be left to take up the burden of defending against the Wei juggernaut.
It's really a "damned if you do,damned if you don't kind of situation".If he attacks,he likely fails and people say he's wasting military resources,though I will mention that at no point did his resource use cause social problems in Shu for the people.If he doesn't and simply build defenses then after he dies Wei steamrolls Shu with numbers and everyone says Jiang Wei's defensive legacy is a failure.

Obviously all the naysayers here can't see that and when I ask them for what they wanted Jiang Wei to do,they all become silent.
If he wasn't going to attack then the best course of action for Shu would be to arrange a hit on Wu jointly with Wei,their reward being that they would become a vassal state under the Liu bloodline.
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Unread postby ZhangBaihu » Wed Aug 25, 2004 5:53 am

Don't forget that the SGZ was a pro-Wei/Jin propaganda document written by Chen Shou - a man whose father was put to death by Zhuge Liang for incompetence. Naturally Chen Shou would hold ill will towards the disciple of Zhuge Liang and inheritor of his tactics. Even knowing this, the SGZ's bio of Jiang Wei was not as harsh as some of the criticisms he seems to get today.

The reason why I admire Jiang Wei so much is he was the one remaining tiger in an age of sheep. He was a man whose great mission was hampered at every turn by the very people he was doing it for. He served an idiotic and fickle emperor who damned every one of his campaigns.

Jiang Wei is quite possibly the GREATEST HERO OF THE ROTK (there I said it :)) because he refused to abandon the world, even after the world abandoned him.
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