Jiang Wei, scared of death?

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Unread postby Jiangji » Mon Aug 30, 2004 3:45 pm

Lady Wu wrote:I've never come across any historical documents hinting at Shu's assimiliation of non-Chinese groups or using them for labour. However, Shu did employ them as mercenaries: Liu Bei sent Ma Liang to get the southern Jingzhou tribes to help them, and Jiang Wei (to tie this back into the original discussion) tried to get the Qiang to help.



I agree that jiang wei never forced the Qiang to become cheap labor.
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Unread postby PrimeMinister Bu Zhi » Mon Aug 30, 2004 4:31 pm

Chen Tai's SGZ says he held them captive, and Chineknowledge says that Shu did use southern tribes as wokrforces.
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Unread postby Sima Hui » Mon Aug 30, 2004 5:59 pm

PrimeMinister Bu Zhi wrote:Chen Tai's SGZ says he held them captive, and Chineknowledge says that Shu did use southern tribes as wokrforces.


As others have said, Chinaknowledge is not always accurate. And I wouldn't rely on the SGZ all the time. They would want Jiang Wei, an extremely anti-Wei figure, to look evil and a menace to people. The SGZwould be slight propaganda to make Wei/Jin look better. So I wouldn't belive absolutely everything in the SGZ.
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Unread postby Jiangji » Mon Aug 30, 2004 6:13 pm

PrimeMinister Bu Zhi wrote:Chen Tai's SGZ says he held them captive, and Chineknowledge says that Shu did use southern tribes as wokrforces.


You can look at western expert on it. As sima Hui say, SGZ is sometimes bias to Wei. Go here and is written by Dr Rafe de Crespigny

http://www.anu.edu.au/asianstudies/decrespigny/
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Unread postby Lady Wu » Mon Aug 30, 2004 6:58 pm

Re: Chen Tai's bio

It is a mistranslation.

Original text:

蜀大将军姜维率众依麹山筑二城,使牙门将句安、李歆等守之,聚羌胡质任等寇偪诸郡。征西将军郭淮与泰谋所以御之,泰曰:“麹城虽固,去蜀险远,当须运粮。羌夷患维劳役,必未肯附。今围而取之,可不血刃而拔其城;虽其有救,山道阻险,非行兵之地也。

A more literal translation:

"Jiang Wei, Commander-in-Chief of Shu, led his men to build two forts at Mount Qu. He had Generals of the Standard Ju An and Li Xin to guard it, and to gather Qiang and Hu captives and recruits to raid the neighbouring commanderies. Guo Huai, General who Conquers the West and Chen Tai conferred regarding the way to defend against them. Tai said, "Although Fort Qu is solid, it is a long and difficult road between it and the heartland of Shu. They would have to transport grains there. The Qiang and other barbarians worry that Jiang Wei would lord over them, and I'm sure they will not go help him. If we go now and lay siege to the city, we can take it with little bloodshed. Even though they would send out reinforcements, the roads are mountainous and treacherous, and unsuitable for transporting troops."

Note the highlighted sections. I don't think they even hint that Jiang Wei routinely took Qiang hostages; they probably took some captives in war, and so Jiang Wei had Ju An and Li Xin to use those captives as well as recruiting other barbarians in order to raid the place. The second bolded section actually implies that the Qiang had not been under Jiang Wei's rule yet.
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Unread postby ZhangBaihu » Tue Aug 31, 2004 4:19 am

Lady Wu wrote:Wang Yin's Records of Shu (in Pei's notes) has the following figures:

男女口九十四万,带甲将士十万二千,吏四万人

"940,000 population, 102,000 armed troops, 40,000 civil servants"


In the SGYY Chapter 118, according to Li Hu's documents of the resources of the kingdom of Shu that he submits to Deng Ai upon surrender Shu had "2,800,000 households, 9,140,000 souls, 102,000 active armed soldiers of all ranks, and 40,000 civil employees."

I'm confused, which is more reputable?
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Unread postby Lady Wu » Tue Aug 31, 2004 4:31 am

The original Chinese:

http://sokamonline.com/3King/3King118.cfm wrote:共戶二十八萬,男女九十四萬,帶甲將士十萬二千,官吏四萬,倉糧四十余萬,金銀各二千斤,錦綺彩絹各二十萬匹。

(I don't have my hardcopy Chinese SGYY with me, so that would have to suffice.)

二十八萬 is 280,000 and 九十四萬 is 940,000 (since 一萬 is 10,000). The translation at threekingdoms.com is wrong.
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