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Why did Liu Pi aid Liu Bei? Is he loyal to the Han?

Unread postPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2004 4:59 pm
by Sima Hui
This is a question that has been in my mind for some time. But first, let me elaborate.

Liu Pi and Gong Du were Yellow Scarves who took Runan and then offered it to the wandering Liu Bei. They were meant to coordinate an attack on Xuchang, but it failed and both Pi and Du died.

Now this is the question. Liu Pi and Gong Du were Yellow Scarves. The Yellow Scarves hated the Han. They found Liu Bei, an imperial uncle of Han. They gave him their forces and their only city, so that they might stand against Cao Cao. Why? Had they seen the errors of their ways and wanted to save the Han? Were they merely afraid of Yuan Shao, who had allied with them and ordered them to assist him? Or were they simply desperate rogues who had no other chance of getting into power?

Unread postPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2004 6:42 pm
by Exar Kun
That's a big assumption that they hated the Han.
There were several million Yellow Scarves,do you think they all wanted to see the Han burn?Not at all.

I doubt even the majority wanted to see the Han burn.They were all simply frustrated with the corruption in the capital and the lack of security in the outer provinces and the Scarves group provided them with the best means of taking action.
If even while the YTR was going on,the capital cleaned up their act there and in the provinces I bet most of the rebels would go home.

So I don't think you should assume these two guys automatically hate the Han because they were Yellow Scarves.

Unread postPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2004 7:33 pm
by Sima Hui
The Yellow Scarves leaders said that the Han had reached its end and that the age of the Yellow Scarves had come about. If the soldiers and people were merely upset about the corruption, would they simply go along with this "Burn the Han!" idea? Plus, I never said Liu Pi and Gong Du hated the Han themselves. What I meant was that the Yellow Scarves hated the Han and Liu and Gong were part of that group. Anyway, you're not answering my question about whether Liu and Gong wanted to save the Han during the late 190's.

Unread postPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2004 7:55 pm
by PrimeMinister Bu Zhi
That's a big assumption that they hated the Han.
There were several million Yellow Scarves,do you think they all wanted to see the Han burn?Not at all.

I doubt even the majority wanted to see the Han burn.They were all simply frustrated with the corruption in the capital and the lack of security in the outer provinces and the Scarves group provided them with the best means of taking action.
If even while the YTR was going on,the capital cleaned up their act there and in the provinces I bet most of the rebels would go home.

So I don't think you should assume these two guys a

utomatically hate the Han because they were Yellow Scarves.


Very true. I think they helped Liu Bei because they wanted to have a chance agianst Cao Cao. Also, someone can join an army but be unhappy about it, or having no choice. Gan Ning is an example. He hated serving Huang Zu but he did it anyway.

Outlaw Gallantry

Unread postPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2004 6:43 am
by ZhangBaihu
If there was one thing I learned from readng the Outlaws of the Marsh, it's that many so-called criminals are in fact true-hearted gallants forced into lives of brigandery. As Jason Hunter, aka the Inspectah Deck said "hard times force crimes out of honest men."

The Yellow Turban Rebellion was a massive movement with millions of followers. Based on the limited accounts I've read, I like to believe Liu Pi and Gong Du were righteous men at heart. When faced with the evolving chaos of their times, they decided their loyalty was best placed with the underdog Liu Bei against the more powerful Cao Cao.

Re: Why did Liu Pi aid Liu Bei? Is he loyal to the Han?

Unread postPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2004 3:33 pm
by Exar Kun
Sima Hui wrote:Now this is the question. Liu Pi and Gong Du were Yellow Scarves. The Yellow Scarves hated the Han. They found Liu Bei, an imperial uncle of Han. They gave him their forces and their only city, so that they might stand against Cao Cao. Why? Had they seen the errors of their ways and wanted to save the Han? Were they merely afraid of Yuan Shao, who had allied with them and ordered them to assist him? Or were they simply desperate rogues who had no other chance of getting into power?


Well to answer your original question I think one point has been overlooked.
Liu Pi and Gong Du were directly in the way of a Cao Cao advance south.
For some reason or the other they didn't want to serve Cao Cao,perhaps because they would lose their current power.If they join Liu Bei and get some success they can expect much from Liu Bei.
Additionally Runan has a much better chance of survival in their hands with Liu Bei helping than if they decided to wait for Cao Cao's advance southward and get trampled by his horde.

Unread postPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2004 5:27 pm
by Liu Pi
When i first read about Liu Pi i was usure where his loyalties lay but after he gave his life to protect Liu Bei i changed my mind. Liu Pi is my favourite character because of this (apart from Zhao Yun) i like brave characters.

Unread postPosted: Tue Aug 10, 2004 1:22 am
by Shield of Rohan
Being frustrated with the Han government doesn't necessarily mean with the concept of its authority or even the Emperor. No one goes against any dynasty when in days of prosperity under strong, progressive, and generally benevolent emperors free from corrupt influence. The Yellow Scarves hated the corruption that was destroying the people and the spreading of the power of lords who were not so benevolent and abusive of power. Ma Teng and Han Sui also rebelled in Liangzhou for similar reasons. Unfortunately, the quelling of these revolts only spread the corruption by empowering new lords with even greater influence.

Liu Pi and Gong Du would have not been in rebellion in the first place had it been the height of the Han Dynasty. When they met a man who differed from the warring lords and wanted the same ideals they had fought for almost twenty years back, it is obvious they would help him. Cao Cao was an ambitious lord who wanted their land and men as soldiers for his power. Liu Bei had given up positions of influence under Gongsun Zan to help the people. Such leaves little doubt as to why they gave Ru Nan to Liu Bei.

Unread postPosted: Fri Sep 24, 2004 7:40 pm
by LING_TONG ^0^
Exar Kun wrote:
That's a big assumption that they hated the Han.

well, I would assume they somewhat did. At least they had a different political belief of Han Court.
Thus, I think the one of the reasons they didn't join Cao is that Cao represented the Han Court (which oppressed the Yellow Scarves). While Liu Bei's "uncle of the Emperor" was originated by his own saying.(also he was famous at benevolence)

Unread postPosted: Fri Sep 24, 2004 7:44 pm
by Exar Kun
LING_TONG ^0^ wrote:well, I would assume they somewhat did. At least they had a different political belief of Han Court.
Thus, I think the one of the reasons they didn't join Cao is that Cao represented the Han Court (which oppressed the Yellow Scarves). While Liu Bei's "uncle of the Emperor" was originated by his own saying.(also he was famous at benevolence)


The average peasant has no political belief outside of how it concerns his own Magistrate.
The political beliefs of the YTR were held as ideals by their leaders.The peasantry revolted with them due to frustration over corruption at local levels and security concerns.

The idea that the Han court "oppressed the Yellow Scarves" is ridiculous.Oppressed?The Scarves weren't a religion or a people.They were rebels.You can't oppress armed rebels.