Would Liu Bei turn to Cao Cao?

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Would Liu Bei turn to Cao Cao?

Unread postby Dennis » Wed Aug 21, 2002 6:42 pm

Chapter 52 of SGYY:
Soon Lu Su came in, to whom Zhou Yu said, "I simply must fight Liu Bei and Zhuge Liang till it is decided which shall have the upper hand. I must also recapture the cities. Perhaps you can assist me."

"It cannot be done," replied Lu Su. "We are now at grips with Cao Cao, and victory or defeat is undecided. Our lord has not been successful in overcoming Hefei. Do not fight near home, or it will be like people of the same household destroying each other. Should Cao Cao take advantage of this position to make a sudden descent, we should be in a parlous condition. Further, you must remember that Liu Bei and Cao Cao are united by the bonds of old friendship. If the pressure becomes too great, Liu Bei may relinquish these cities, offer them to Cao Cao, and join forces with him to attack the south. That would be a real misfortune."


After taking Nan Jun, Zhou Yu wanted desperately to attack Zhuge Liang, but the problem is Lu Su said that if Xuande had his back to the corner, do you think, while knowing about the Changban incident, that Liu Bei would have gone to Cao Cao if he was pressed to hard? Explain?
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Unread postby Anshi » Wed Aug 21, 2002 6:53 pm

Although I agree with Lu Su's advice in this instance (i.e., don't fight with Liu Bei until Cao Cao is defeated), I don't think that Liu Bei would turn to Cao Cao unless Wu had already been defeated, or it looked like Wu was definitely going to be defeated, because he was bright enough to know he couldn't survive on his own.
Wu simply did not have enough troops to fight on two fronts to defeat both Cao Cao and Liu Bei (not to mention the Shan Yue).
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Unread postby Zhang Liao17 » Wed Aug 21, 2002 6:54 pm

Its rather tough to say. By this time Liu Bei and Cao Cao basically hated each other, but if worst came to worst, Liu Bei would probaly surrender to Cao Cao and wait for an oppurtunity to break free again. Cao Cao being a brilliant strategist would most likely accept him and find some way to compass his death.
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Unread postby Dennis » Wed Aug 21, 2002 6:58 pm

Anshi wrote:Although I agree with Lu Su's advice in this instance (i.e., don't fight with Liu Bei until Cao Cao is defeated), I don't think that Liu Bei would turn to Cao Cao unless Wu had already been defeated, or it looked like Wu was definitely going to be defeated, because he was bright enough to know he couldn't survive on his own.
Wu simply did not have enough troops to fight on two fronts to defeat both Cao Cao and Liu Bei (not to mention the Shan Yue).


So do you believe that Lu Su was just humouring Zhou Yu? There was absolutely no chance of Liu Bei going to Cao Cao if he was really in trouble?
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Unread postby Anshi » Wed Aug 21, 2002 7:17 pm

Zhou Lide wrote:So do you believe that Lu Su was just humouring Zhou Yu? There was absolutely no chance of Liu Bei going to Cao Cao if he was really in trouble?


More or less. I think he was just trying to support his own position by saying something Zhou Yu would fear. In reality, it is more likely that Liu Bei would flee to Liu Zhang, Zhang Lu or Ma Chao than Cao Cao.
Another example of this is when Guo Jia is making a speech encouraging Cao Cao to attack Yuan Shao, he calls Zhang He a "fool" (or something to that effect), when obviously this is not true. He is merely trying to encourage Cao Cao to attack, and not necessarily telling him the truest or most accurate things. :D
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Unread postby Pang Shiyuan » Wed Aug 21, 2002 9:37 pm

Anshi wrote:More or less. I think he was just trying to support his own position by saying something Zhou Yu would fear. In reality, it is more likely that Liu Bei would flee to Liu Zhang, Zhang Lu or Ma Chao than Cao Cao.


Another potential reason why Liu Bei wouldn't dream of returning to Cao:

He'd betrayed him before and there's no telling whether he might do it again. As Cheng Yu summed it up, Liu Bei was far too ambitious for his own good.

Anshi wrote:Another example of this is when Guo Jia is making a speech encouraging Cao Cao to attack Yuan Shao, he calls Zhang He a "fool" (or something to that effect), when obviously this is not true. He is merely trying to encourage Cao Cao to attack, and not necessarily telling him the truest or most accurate things. :D


Another discrepency I was wondering was when Xun Yu said Ju Shou and Shen Pei were petty squabblers over political power.
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Unread postby Cao Ren » Thu Aug 22, 2002 1:26 pm

Lie Bei would never surrender to him. I think he would much rather die than surrender. I don't think he would be a fool and surrender to cao cao because that his like killing yourself. With the times back then cao cao would surely kill him after he submitted. I think Lu Su was saying that because if they got into any Military action with Liu Bei they might lose and die(and zhou yu did).(i think Lu Su feared Kongming)
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Unread postby Chao Tzu Lung1 » Thu Aug 22, 2002 5:56 pm

Cao Ren wrote:Lie Bei would never surrender to him. I think he would much rather die than surrender. I don't think he would be a fool and surrender to cao cao because that his like killing yourself. With the times back then cao cao would surely kill him after he submitted. I think Lu Su was saying that because if they got into any Military action with Liu Bei they might lose and die(and zhou yu did).(i think Lu Su feared Kongming)


i agreee with cao ren, lu su feared kongmins just as most generals of that time, but then u hae people like zhou yu who tho they could defeat and maybe claim to be better than kongming, which was not true. sima yi was kongming's only equal rival.
liu bei surrender to cao cao???? i donj't know about all that, but if wu and shu teamed up against wei they would have succeed in the end, but if wei teamed up with wu? too many conflicts and the 2 would never get along and shu with wei??? i dont know, cao and liu being friends at one point, maybe, just maybe, take the ehlp of each other and try to unify china, but cao cao would never let liu bei live or escape his grasp again.
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Unread postby Stefanos » Sat Aug 24, 2002 4:31 pm

Chao Tzu Lung1 wrote:i agreee with cao ren, lu su feared kongmins just as most generals of that time, but then u hae people like zhou yu who tho they could defeat and maybe claim to be better than kongming, which was not true. sima yi was kongming's only equal rival.


By the book, the writer made it apparent that Kongming had no equal. Sima Yi was playing guessing games half the time. I guess Sima Yi was just really lucky.

Ok, heres another question(yes, it goes off the topic). Was Zhou Yu equal to Sima Yi in the book and was Sima Yi anything more than Kongming was in real life?
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Unread postby Cao Ren » Sat Aug 24, 2002 11:05 pm

sima yi did get lucky, but he also had more food and other advantages, Kongming was unlucky with shortage of grain and other things.

I think that zhou yu was equal or maybe a better strategist than Sima Yi, both were great and i wish had lived at the time
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