Most Hated People of the Han Dynasty / Three Kingdoms

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Most Hated People of the Han Dynasty / Three Kingdoms

Unread postby Kongde » Thu Feb 13, 2020 9:06 pm

I'm curious as to who you would consider the most despicable person in these times, from Emperor Gaozu to the Jin Dynasty, and why.

There are a few people I'd pick but I'll leave those open for others to talk about. My pick will have to be way back in the formation of Han, Empress Dowager nee Lu. The reason for this is because of her attempted power grab after Liu Bang's (Gaozu's) death. She was inhuman in the way she killed her opponents and enjoyed torturing them to death. She brutally mutilated and tortured Gaozu's concubines, especially his favorite (Lady Qi, whom he had a son with who he wanted to enthrone but failed to do so), and dumped her body in a sewer, the utmost sign of disrespect. Then, she showed her very own son of whom she herself had ensured would be enthroned the body of Lady Qi. It was said he could not even recognize her and wept into a nervous breakdown and for a year stuck to his bed. He became severely depressed and indulged in women and wine all day after this. Before she killed her, she had poisoned her own step son, Lady Qi's son, Ruyi.

Not stopping there, she continued her brutally harsh punishments against the Liu family. To ensure she had maintained her power and her overall clans power, she married girls of her family to Gaozu's sons. One of them, Liu Yu, did not love his wife and favored a concubine (much like Liu Bang himself), and so was slandered to Empress Dowager nee Lu as having said that after her death he would attack the Lu family. As retaliation, a simple beheading or poisoning was not enough to satisfy her twisted mind. She summoned Liu Yu to the capital and starved him to death in his lodging. How cruel and wicked!

But it STILL does not end there, her wicked cruelties. The other son of Gaozu who was married to a Lu family member ended up committing suicide after she poisoned his favorite concubine, and it was said he was oppressed by her heavily. A third son of Gaozu was killed, Jian, and his son by the Empress.

After her own son who she enthroned died, she enthroned someone who was the child of Emperor Hui and lied to him who his mother was for what she had done to her. When he found out, he promised to change things when he grew up. She pronounced him insane and imprisoned him to death in the palace prison.

She still has plenty more of evil deeds she has done, but just to name a few. Killing for power is somewhat normal at this time. But this woman clearly got a sick twisted pleasure in others misery and thoroughly enjoyed torturing anyone who opposed her in brutal ways.

Who is your most despicable person? Will there be an obligatory Dong Zhou, or maybe a Sun Hao, any others to name and why?
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Re: Most Hated People of the Han Dynasty / Three Kingdoms

Unread postby Pirao » Thu Feb 13, 2020 9:11 pm

Lu Zhi was indeed a real piece of sh*t, but then again so was Liu Bang, he betrayed and killed so many of the guys who helped him get the throne when he no longer had need of them, so like husband, like wife, I suppose, though at least he wasn't a sadist. Too bad the Xiongnu didn't kill his ass when they had him surrounded.
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Re: Most Hated People of the Han Dynasty / Three Kingdoms

Unread postby Kongde » Thu Feb 13, 2020 9:16 pm

Pirao wrote:Lu Zhi was indeed a real piece of sh*t, but then again so was Liu Bang, he betrayed and killed so many of the guys who helped him to get the throne when he no longer had need of them, so like husband, like wife, I suppose, though at least he wasn't a sadist. Too bad the Xiongnu didn't kill his ass when they had him surrounded.


Liu Bang did not betray anyone. Though he was cautious of Han Xin, it was Lu Zhi who had Han Xin killed of her own accord. As for the others, I have heard debate that Lu Zhi herself intentionally misinformed Liu Bang to get rid of his own followers by claiming they rebelled. How true this is is up in the air, but if true, it only further serves to show how cruel she was. I see no reason Bang would go out of his way to hurt his own followers and friends without good reason. In fact, the majority of his rule, he explicitly tried to reward original followers of his and tried to ensure they remain loyal to him.

Xiang Yu wasnt much better. He slaughtered 200,000 surrendered soldiers just because they couldnt get along with his soldiers and he feared their loyalty. Just slaughtered them. He also failed to trust anyone but his family and didnt reward anyone properly.
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Re: Most Hated People of the Han Dynasty / Three Kingdoms

Unread postby Pirao » Thu Feb 13, 2020 9:32 pm

Liu Bang had been looking for an excuse to get rid of Han Xin for a while, Lu Zhi just did the dirty work for him. If the empress had acted against his will why didn't he have her punished, then? Also, the other Han Xin, Peng Yue, Lu Wan. Ying Bu was also pushed to rebel due to Liu Bang's prior purge of non-Liu kings.

The only followers he tried to keep happy were the ones that came from the same town as himself, and none of them were kings so they didn't have the military power the other guys did, thus they were much more manageable and no threat to his rule.

Cao Cao did the same thing Xiang Yu did with Yuan Shao's soldiers, didn't he?
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Re: Most Hated People of the Han Dynasty / Three Kingdoms

Unread postby Sun Fin » Fri Feb 14, 2020 9:53 am

I'm not going to pick Gan Ning or Sun Quan, I'm sure much to everyone's surprise. I think the worst most despicable figure is Cao Cao, the massacre of province is the standout most repulsive moment of the entire era.
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Re: Most Hated People of the Han Dynasty / Three Kingdoms

Unread postby DaoLunOfShiji » Fri Feb 14, 2020 11:09 am

Sun Fin wrote:I'm not going to pick Gan Ning or Sun Quan, I'm sure much to everyone's surprise. I think the worst most despicable figure is Cao Cao, the massacre of province is the standout most repulsive moment of the entire era.


How so? Both massacres, I'm of the proponent that there were two as that's how the HHS portrays it, had two parallels in the coming years. The first massacre was around Xiapi after Tao Qian first attacked Cao Cao. Cao Cao massacred the region for their support for Que Xuan's bid for Sovereign, just as Sima Yi did for Xiangping supporting Gongsun Yuan. The second came in response to Cao Song's death and occured around the region he was killed, thus making it a filial act in the era. Unlike Sun Quan he actually took vengeance on the area his father was killed rather than just on a general city. If you judge massacres as the worst thing someone can do, Cao Cao is no worse than Sima Yi and certainly better than Sun Quan when you use the morals of the time. Furthermore you can throw Lu Xun in there as well for attacking innocents.
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Re: Most Hated People of the Han Dynasty / Three Kingdoms

Unread postby Zyzyfer » Sat Feb 15, 2020 1:51 am

Ma Chao. Guy was a total jerky jerkface. It's almost like he wanted to get everyone in his family killed. :o
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Re: Most Hated People of the Han Dynasty / Three Kingdoms

Unread postby Kongde » Sat Feb 15, 2020 5:35 am

Sun Fin wrote:I'm not going to pick Gan Ning or Sun Quan, I'm sure much to everyone's surprise. I think the worst most despicable figure is Cao Cao, the massacre of province is the standout most repulsive moment of the entire era.

I'm surprised you would pick Cao Cao over Sun Chen or Sun Hao. Of the TK specifically, how could Cao Cao be worse than Dong Zhuo? He plundered cities and killed the husbands and raped their wives and daughters. Dong Zhuo also set ablaze a city to save his own tail.

"Dong Zhuo’s nature was merciless and without benevolence. He used severe punishments to threaten people and always took revenge even just for something like an angry stare. No one could defend themselves.

Dong Zhuo once sent an army to Yangcheng. The attack coincided with the sacrifices for the second month, when people were coming down each from their own sacrifices. Dong Zhuo's soldiers choped off men’s heads, confiscated their wagons and herds, kidnapped their wives and daughters, and plundered their valuables. They tied the heads along the sides of chariots or even on wheel spokes. When the line of carriages returned to Luoyang, it was claimed that they had attacked bandits and taken their booty, and they gave a great hail. When the army entered into the gates of Yangcheng, the heads were all burned, and the wives and daughters were given out among the soldiers as servants or concubines. Dong Zhuo went so far as to debauch the palace ladies and princesses. Such was his wild presumption . . .

Dong Zhuo also dug up He Miao's coffin, took out the body, broke up the joints and left it on the side of a road. He killed He Miao's mother, the Lady of Wuyang, and threw her corpse into some brambles in a park. . .

The imperial carriage then set out for the west. Dong Zhuo’s soldiers burned Luoyang as well as one hundred li outside the city. He also sent his soldiers to burn the Northern and Southern Palaces as well as the Ancestral Temple, the storehouses, even the common people’s homes. Everything within the city was swept away. He also arrested the rich families, charged them with crimes, and confiscated their valuables. The amount of innocent people who died was too many to be counted."

Source: Dong Zhuo's SGZ bio Translated by Taishi Ci 2.0
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Re: Most Hated People of the Han Dynasty / Three Kingdoms

Unread postby DaoLunOfShiji » Sat Feb 15, 2020 10:21 am

To me there is no more despicable duo than Sima Zhao and Jia Chong. Regicide. The worst possible crime one could commit and they got away with it. Worst is that you have people who defend their actions.
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Re: Most Hated People of the Han Dynasty / Three Kingdoms

Unread postby Pirao » Sat Feb 15, 2020 10:46 am

DaoLunOfShiji wrote:To me there is no more despicable duo than Sima Zhao and Jia Chong. Regicide. The worst possible crime one could commit and they got away with it. Worst is that you have people who defend their actions.


¿? Why would killing a king/emperor be worse than massacring tens of thousands? Sima Zhao was just following the path previously set up by Wang Mang and Cao Cao, no Cao Wei monarch has any right to complain about getting usurped when they're usurpers themselves.
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