Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Join the Romance of the Three Kingdoms discussion with our resident Scholars. Topics relating to the novel and history are both welcome. Don't forget to check the Forum Rules before posting.
Kongming’s Archives: Romance of the Three Kingdoms
Three Kingdoms Officer Biographies
Three Kingdoms Officer Encyclopedia
Scholars of Shen Zhou Search Tool

Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Kongde » Sun Oct 06, 2019 2:05 am

PeanutButterToast wrote:What was drug use like back in the Three Kingdoms time period? Was it illegal or just frowned upon? Or did anyone really care? Did any notable officers in the era use them?

Hemp was quite common among the Han Dynasty. It was used for rope and was the main textile cloth for peasants of the time. In some cases, it wasn't uncommon for peasant farmers to eat the Hemp seeds. Furthermore, they also recognized the medicinal benefits of cannabis, with the earliest mention being in 2,000 BC. Hua Tuo, the famous physician of his time in the Three Kingdoms era who was recognized for his incredible medicinal skills of the time, supposedly used cannabis as an anesthetic by possibly using wine to concentrate the active compounds. He likely used a large amount of it, too, to get the anesthetic effect. Recreationally speaking, the use of cannabis does not appear to be used much, at least recorded. However, this does not mean that this did not exist. Though, I personally believe it was not a commonly used drug despite the importance of Hemp in Chinese agriculture.
?-Kongde-?
User avatar
Kongde
Initiate
 
Posts: 73
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2019 5:59 am

Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby PeanutButterToast » Wed Oct 16, 2019 1:06 am

So if I am understanding this correctly, they used hemp and cannabis for medicinal purposes, but it wasn't regularly used recreationally? Like, there probably weren't very many stoners around this time, despite it being all over the place? I don't mean to sound silly, I'm seriously curious. Thank y'all for your replies.
User avatar
PeanutButterToast
Initiate
 
Posts: 75
Joined: Wed Jul 05, 2017 4:38 am

Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Wed Oct 16, 2019 7:59 am

PeanutButterToast wrote:So if I am understanding this correctly, they used hemp and cannabis for medicinal purposes, but it wasn't regularly used recreationally? Like, there probably weren't very many stoners around this time, despite it being all over the place? I don't mean to sound silly, I'm seriously curious. Thank y'all for your replies.


The texts don't suggest drug use was something that happened on mass but it doesn't really go into detail about such things. It may well have been limited to certain rich groupings that could afford it and disagreed with the Confucian restraint like He Yan so indulged in pleasure.
User avatar
Dong Zhou
A-Dou
A-Dou
 
Posts: 17039
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2005 12:32 pm
Location: "Now we must die. May Your Majesty maintain yourself"

Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Rezko_Kanashi » Tue Nov 05, 2019 10:57 pm

I have a few questions from around the end of the Han Dynasty period. (190 AD -198 AD)

Did Dong Zhou's entire bloodline die out after he was executed to the third degree, and do we have any documentation on how Lu Bü was seen by both the common folk, and the former enemy coalition leaders after taking part in setting up Dong Zhou's demise? Also what was Emperor Xian's relationship with the Tyrant? Was he fearful of Dong Zhou, or was he thankful for the position he was given?
Rezko_Kanashi
Apprentice
 
Posts: 23
Joined: Tue May 17, 2016 6:30 pm

Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Wed Nov 06, 2019 12:25 pm

Rezko_Kanashi wrote:I have a few questions from around the end of the Han Dynasty period. (190 AD -198 AD)

Did Dong Zhou's entire bloodline die out after he was executed to the third degree, and do we have any documentation on how Lu Bü was seen by both the common folk, and the former enemy coalition leaders after taking part in setting up Dong Zhou's demise? Also what was Emperor Xian's relationship with the Tyrant? Was he fearful of Dong Zhou, or was he thankful for the position he was given?


1) Yes his forces rose up and killed his bloodline at Mei

2) Yuan Shu felt Lu Bu was a betrayer and refused to hire him. Generally warlords were either "heroic killer of the tyrant" or "traitor", depending on their relationship with Lu Bu at the time and what the convenient message was. Don't think common people's view was known, we know there were celebrations in Chang'an at the deed though who they credited it more to I can't say.

3) I think Emperor Xian being grateful for the murder of his half-brother and predecessor would not have gone down well among the gentry. Emperor Xian was young at the time so impossible to know what exactly he felt about Dong Zhuo, I don't think there is anything recorded till later when any thoughts he had would have to be couched to soothe whoever controlled him
User avatar
Dong Zhou
A-Dou
A-Dou
 
Posts: 17039
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2005 12:32 pm
Location: "Now we must die. May Your Majesty maintain yourself"

Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Rezko_Kanashi » Thu Nov 07, 2019 10:12 pm

I've recently read some of your analysis on Yuan Shao, and He Jin. My question is how would He Jin not have known that Yuan Shao was abusing his new position as an investigator, and threatening to kill the eunuchs even if He Jin had offered them a peaceful exit? That type of drastic action from Yuan Shao would have likely been reported, and known about considering He Jin had become very well perceived by many in Luo Yang.
Rezko_Kanashi
Apprentice
 
Posts: 23
Joined: Tue May 17, 2016 6:30 pm

Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Sat Nov 09, 2019 5:51 pm

Sorry for taking so long to respond Rezko-Kanashi but good question.

At some point, given long enough, word surely have reached He Jin from someone eventually but Yuan Shao may have been hoping to have forced situation or made it difficult for He Jin to overturn by that point.

Who would report though before then (I know you mentioned capital gentry but going through the options)?

1) Yuan Shao and his surely carefully chosen men wouldn't, this was to get the result they wanted and even those less keen on killing, the Yuan's were powerful patrons.

2) the local officials/gentry won't, this is breaking the eunuchs local power which they welcome and assuming Yuan Shao is competent, any reports would have likely gone to Yuan Shao's allies.

3) the capital gentry were the ones who had slandered the He family background, I suspects the capital gentry's support was more becuase he suited their interest to get rid of the eunuchs rather then loyalty to He Jin. The Yuan's were master patrons and long established, imperial family figures came and went so in their interests (for those not so keen on eunuch destruction) to back the heir of the Yuan clan by turning blind eye.

4) eunuchs. Given they would have thought it was He Jin, probably not the route they were likely to take
User avatar
Dong Zhou
A-Dou
A-Dou
 
Posts: 17039
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2005 12:32 pm
Location: "Now we must die. May Your Majesty maintain yourself"

Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Aaron.K » Wed Nov 27, 2019 5:04 pm

Did Sun Jian die in 191 or 193?

Rafe's tome (Biographical Dictionary) goes with 191, while in Generals of the South, he writes:

"Sun Jian's biography in Sanguo zhi, and Dian lue and Yingxiong ji quoted in commentary, have differing accounts of his death.76 Their descriptions of the general course of the operations can be reconciled, but Dian lue says that Huang Zu made a sortie by night, and that the battle near Fan and the fatal pursuit took place in darkness. The main text and Dian lue say that Sun Jian was shot by an arrow, but Yingxiong ji claims that he was hit on the head and killed by a rock thrown down from a height above."

Wang Can (a contemporary to Sun Jian) wrote the (英雄記) Yingxiong Ji, while Yu Huan (lived between 220–280, his date of birth and death are unknown) wrote the Dian lue.

What do you take to be more authoritative?
"Don't trust anyone. Never sit with your back to an entrance. Wear shoes with reversed footprints."
Also, check out my forum. A general history board called: The History Room
User avatar
Aaron.K
Sage
 
Posts: 283
Joined: Fri Jun 27, 2008 4:09 am
Location: Canada

Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Thu Nov 28, 2019 11:46 am

Generals of the South also says 191 as far as I can tell? In terms of the manner of deaths, I would probably go with the contemporary sources though it doesn't seem a huge difference
User avatar
Dong Zhou
A-Dou
A-Dou
 
Posts: 17039
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2005 12:32 pm
Location: "Now we must die. May Your Majesty maintain yourself"

Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby waywardauthor » Sun Dec 01, 2019 6:58 am

Dong Zhou wrote:Generals of the South also says 191 as far as I can tell? In terms of the manner of deaths, I would probably go with the contemporary sources though it doesn't seem a huge difference

Generals of the South does say that Sun Jian died in 191. A quote from the chronology page: "191 Sun Jian captures Luoyang from Dong Zhuo; Sun Jian attacks Liu Biao and Huang Zu in Xiangyang; death of Sun Jian."
Alone I lean under the wispy shade of an aged tree,
Scornfully I raise to parted lips a cup of warm wine,
Longingly I cast an empty vessel aside those exposed roots,
And leave behind forgotten memories and forsaken dreams.
User avatar
waywardauthor
Scholar
 
Posts: 338
Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2016 11:27 am

PreviousNext

Return to Sanguo Yanyi Symposium

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests

Copyright © 2002–2008 Kongming’s Archives. All Rights Reserved