TK Era Historical Book Recommendations

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Re: TK Era Historical Book Recommendations

Unread postby zirroxas » Thu Dec 06, 2018 3:16 am

Han wrote:
The fundamental mechanics of men killing each other does not change between continents. Nor do the axioms of logistics, engineering, psychology, terrain, or any other facet of war. All that changes is actor, application, and circumstance. I already qualified the differences between the situations and the implications should be obvious.


Yes there were. The technological differences between Hannibal invasions and 3K is so large. Elephants for example, were never used. The same goes for the different technological feats of the Roman and Chinese Empires. As for psychology, Ive already pointed out that there were difference in philosophy and ideals of Rome and Han. As for terrain, China is very very different to Europe geographically so its kinda funny how you argue that the fundamental mechanics do not change when it comes to this aspect. And no, you didnt qualify nor source any of your claims. Everything that you wrote previously wasnt necessarily wrong, but it was filled with assumptions.

If there's one thing that the past 30 years of military academia has been exemplary at, its tearing down the artificial distinction between "Eastern" and "Western" warfare in all periods. One is on just as much solid ground comparing and connecting Roman and British warfare as they are Punic and Chinese.


Laughable. And no, the distinction is not artifical. Furthermore, modern academia do not tear down one another so much as aconowledge the differences. Also, out of all your many assumptions, this is the one I have the most issue with. Nobody rarely, if ever, make such sweeping generalisations of modern academia. This is something I just cant accept. Finally, no offence but warfare for every continent took place differently with very different circumstances and outcomes. Even within the same continent, the Chinese vs Koreans vs Japanese armies of the same time period had remarakble difference. From the army composition, to their priorities, to their strategies, training regiments, the way they handled logistics, their aims and objectives, to the way their soldiers engaged in the battlefield. Of course, that doesnt mean that there is lack of solid ground to compare but that - using your example - the ground of Rome vs Brits warfare is more 'solid' than that of the Punic and Chinese making direct comparisons quite a bit 'shaky'.


You misunderstand what my point is, again, but I am not going to engage with you any further.
I don't underrate the value of military knowledge, but if men make war in slavish obedience to rules, they will fail. - Ulysses S. Grant
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Re: TK Era Historical Book Recommendations

Unread postby Jia Nanfeng » Thu Dec 06, 2018 5:09 am

zirroxas wrote:You misunderstand what my point is, again, but I am not going to engage with you any further.

Sorry for the rough introduction to the community. I hope it hasn't put you off.

Han struggles with being condescending. :roll:
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Re: TK Era Historical Book Recommendations

Unread postby DaoLunOfShiji » Thu Dec 06, 2018 5:42 am

Kind of odd how a thread about book recommendations turned kind of hostile... and I wasn't even the reason! :lol:
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Re: TK Era Historical Book Recommendations

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Thu Dec 06, 2018 1:08 pm

Jia Nanfeng wrote:
zirroxas wrote:You misunderstand what my point is, again, but I am not going to engage with you any further.

Sorry for the rough introduction to the community. I hope it hasn't put you off.

Han struggles with being condescending. :roll:


Whatever the point one is trying to make, an eyeroll emoji during (or just after) a heated debate is not going to help calm things down.

If one is going to discuss another's debating style or manner even in happier moods, do so with as much care as possible as it goes into personal area and can cause upset.
“You, are a rebellious son who abandoned his father. You are a cruel brigand who murdered his lord. How can Heaven and Earth put up with you for long? And unless you die soon, how can you face the sight of men?”
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Re: TK Era Historical Book Recommendations

Unread postby Jia Nanfeng » Thu Dec 06, 2018 2:32 pm

You’re right, sorry for the eye roll Han.
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Re: TK Era Historical Book Recommendations

Unread postby Han » Fri Dec 07, 2018 3:22 pm

You misunderstand what my point is, again, but I am not going to engage with you any further.


I am not misunderstanding anything, it is not my problem if you are unwilling to debate in good faith nor put in any effort to learn. :wink: I am truly sorry if you feel that I misunderstood your points but if you really believe as so, then feel free to point out my misunderstandings.

Sorry for the rough introduction to the community. I hope it hasn't put you off.

Han struggles with being condescending. :roll:


Rough? How so... His a new dude to this forum but he claimed something that is so out of this world! Like... he literally 1. Generalise three decades worth of academia even though it is literally impossible to do so and then 2 proceed to straight up dismiss said academia comparisons as artifical. Furthermore, he tries to equalise the comparisons of Roman vs British and Punic vs Chinese. REALLY? :?

I am confused... if you have any issue with my arguments, feel free to take a stand or make a point. If you have an issue with the way I argue, you may always warn me about it. Just putting it out there. At the end of the day, isn't this a community where we share our thoughts and learn from one another?

Kind of odd how a thread about book recommendations turned kind of hostile... and I wasn't even the reason! :lol:


This thread isnt even hostile... :lol: And frankly speaking, I started off as nice as possible until he typed that second paragraph. But if the new dude starts typing the stuff that he usually types on reddit...... thats when I will bring out my r/askhistorians goggles. 8-)

Whatever the point one is trying to make, an eyeroll emoji during (or just after) a heated debate is not going to help calm things down.

If one is going to discuss another's debating style or manner even in happier moods, do so with as much care as possible as it goes into personal area and can cause upset.


Its cool. There is nothing wrong with using an emoji.

You’re right, sorry for the eye roll Han.


It is fine lmao. There is nothing for you to apologise about.
Liu Bei did nothing wrong.
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Re: TK Era Historical Book Recommendations

Unread postby Jia Nanfeng » Fri Dec 07, 2018 5:39 pm

Rough? How so... His a new dude to this forum but he claimed something that is so out of this world! Like... he literally 1. Generalise three decades worth of academia even though it is literally impossible to do so and then 2 proceed to straight up dismiss said academia comparisons as artifical. Furthermore, he tries to equalise the comparisons of Roman vs British and Punic vs Chinese. REALLY? :?

I am confused... if you have any issue with my arguments, feel free to take a stand or make a point. If you have an issue with the way I argue, you may always warn me about it. Just putting it out there. At the end of the day, isn't this a community where we share our thoughts and learn from one another?

It’s definitely a community for sharing and learning! When disagreeing with someone, I think it’s best to avoid saying points are “laughable” or “out of this world” or such. Even if that’s how you feel about them, it takes on an unpleasant lecture tone and doesn’t add anything to a rebuttal. Plus I think a lot of people here would prefer discussions over debate; not every conversation needs to be a fight to win.

Reading over the thread again, I think you were both addressing different points about the same issue. If it had continued peacefully, I think this would have been cleared up.

Most of all, I wanted to ensure the newcomer he was welcome. We’re a small niche corner of the internet; I don’t want new users to be driven away or feel like they have to always be on their toes even when making harmless book recommendation topics. :P
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Re: TK Era Historical Book Recommendations

Unread postby Han » Sat Dec 08, 2018 10:16 am

Ok. You are correct. Rereading the entire page, I realised I came off as quite hostile. I hereby extent a sincere apology to zirroxas. I will also try to minimize the abrasiveness of my language. I swear.

Buttttttt... a minor nitpick though, a debate constitutes as a discussion. And to borrow your own words, I do not seek to 'win' I seek to learn. If my main purpose was 'winning', I would never accept my mistakes when confronted about it in the past. Just putting this outthere.

As for the rest, I wholeheartedly agree with you.
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Re: TK Era Historical Book Recommendations

Unread postby Jia Nanfeng » Sat Dec 08, 2018 4:43 pm

Han wrote:Ok. You are correct. Rereading the entire page, I realised I came off as quite hostile. I hereby extent a sincere apology to zirroxas. I will also try to minimize the abrasiveness of my language. I swear.

Buttttttt... a minor nitpick though, a debate constitutes as a discussion. And to borrow your own words, I do not seek to 'win' I seek to learn. If my main purpose was 'winning', I would never accept my mistakes when confronted about it in the past. Just putting this outthere.

As for the rest, I wholeheartedly agree with you.

Thank you. :mrgreen:

Debates and discussions do have a thin line between them. Personally I think the difference is debates usually involve disputing another’s position in favor of your own, whereas discussions involve simply defending your own position. I personally think the latter tends to be more friendly and open to correction, but I know it’s not always realistic to avoid disputing. So yeah you’re right that there’s some overlap.

Also sorry about my initial post; I should have been more clear from the beginning instead of just letting an emoji do the talking. :P
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