Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Join the Romance of the Three Kingdoms discussion with our resident Scholars. Topics relating to the novel and history are both welcome. Don't forget to check the Forum Rules before posting.
Kongming’s Archives: Romance of the Three Kingdoms
Three Kingdoms Officer Biographies
Three Kingdoms Officer Encyclopedia
Scholars of Shen Zhou Search Tool

Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Tao Qian » Mon Feb 19, 2018 7:37 pm

Hi,

Someone knows where to find information about the historical battle of Red Cliff?

Thanks!
User avatar
Tao Qian
Assistant
 
Posts: 141
Joined: Sun Sep 05, 2010 11:09 pm

Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Sun Fin » Mon Feb 19, 2018 10:30 pm

This chapter of To Establish Peace is probably the best place to start followed by this chapter of Generals of the South. The first translated by Prof De Crispigny and the second written by him.
Interested in the history behind the novel? Find a list of english language Three Kingdom sources here.
User avatar
Sun Fin
Librarian of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 7226
Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2007 9:20 pm
Location: The birthplace of radio

Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Tue Feb 20, 2018 2:28 pm

Han wrote:2) Absolutely. Planning for the future especially after a loss of an entire province would be expected. Lack of controllibality? If I recall, Zhuge Liang feared Liu Feng for his martial prowess and feared that he would defect like Meng Da, nothing particular about his attitude.

3) Agreed.

Hmm, thats not how I see his comments. The way I look at it is a guy that wants to report to Liu Bei but at the same time understand Fa Zheng importance and value so did not do so.

For what its worth, Fa Zheng SGZ at XueSanGuo has:

Zhūgě Liàng and Zhèng, though their values were not the same, could admire each other’s righteousness. [Zhūgě] Liàng was always impressed with Zhèng’s wisdom and ability.

When Xiānzhǔ had just taken Imperial Title, and was about to campaign east against Sūn Quán to avenge the disgrace of Guān Yǔ, most of the officials remonstrated, but he would not listen to a single one. Zhāngwǔ second year [222], the main army was heavily defeated, and returned to station at Báidì. [Zhūgě] Liàng sighed and said: “if Fǎ Xiàozhí were still here, then he would have been able to hold back our ruler, and have him not go east, but even if we had gone east, then it certainly would not have been this much of a disaster.” (1)


5) I see. Where can I find information about this particular Liu Yan. Google net me many Liu Yans including the father of Liu Zhang but not this particular one.

6) Nah its cool lmao. Agreed.

8) Not really. To be fair, Cao Shuang did get his ass handed to him by both Shu Han externally in a single military campaihn and the Confucian Gentry internally through a revolt against his regime.

I see. Correct me if Im wrong but the official charges against him was the excess right? Plus most of the confucian gentry did feel alienated enough to the point where they sided with a Sima over a Cao.

4) Hmm. But the particular criticism by reddit is over the historical part hence the mention of the official historians of antiquity. Not the fictional part.

If I recall correctly, Zhang Liao did play a role in the charge. Agreed, seems like its tumblr anti ShuHan bias getting to work again. :wink:

Bar legitimacy? Not that I recall off the top of my head.


As in th King of HanZhong thing right? I see.

Your opinion on Bei vs Bang vs Xiu?

I believe the temples he built for Emperor veneration were built as if he was the continuation of the previous Han dynasties.


I see. So Bei did set up temples for Bang and Xiu? Thats pretty cool info.

Your thoughts on Bei vs Bang vs Xiu?


2) ZZTJ has
Zhuge Liang feared that Liu Feng, a man of strong will and character, might not remain tractable after the death of his adoptive father, so he now advised the King of Hanzhong to do away with him. Thereupon Liu Feng was ordered to commit suicide.


I do wonder if even a less "strong will" figure might have been considered too risky for the security of Shu given age and miliatry expirence.

3) That's fair, I may be reading too much into things.

The other quote I was thinking of is
"When his lordship was at Gongan," replied Zhuge Liang, "in the north he faced the strength of Cao Cao, in the east he shrank from the oppression of Sun Quan, while near at home he feared the Lady Sun would cause trouble in his own house.46 Through the aid Fa Xiaozhi47 brought him he was able to soar and fly high, so that nothing can hold him back. How can he now restrict and confine Xiaozhi, denying him the few things he asks?"


5) Same one, he timetravelled :wink: Apparently he has an SGZ translated ] here but where I had seen it mentioned pre that sgz, it tended to be in a more... hostile version for Wei Yan.

8) Just don't become a pollster!

Treason and corruption off the top of my head.

4) In my expirence, the cultural Guan Yu image is why the historical Guan Yu (at least partly) gets such a kicking even if they don't mention it

Zhang Liao took part but claims that Zhang Liao is the big credit guy or things like that can't be backed up. Zhang Liao led the forces, it was Guan Yu that managed to get the kill without it being credited to Zhang Liao

In terms of the Liu comparison, I'm ill placed to comment
“You, are a rebellious son who abandoned his father. You are a cruel brigand who murdered his lord. How can Heaven and Earth put up with you for long? And unless you die soon, how can you face the sight of men?”
User avatar
Dong Zhou
A-Dou
A-Dou
 
Posts: 15815
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2005 12:32 pm
Location: "Now we must die. May Your Majesty maintain yourself"

Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Tao Qian » Wed Feb 21, 2018 9:31 pm

Sun Fin wrote:This chapter of To Establish Peace is probably the best place to start followed by this chapter of Generals of the South. The first translated by Prof De Crispigny and the second written by him.

Thanks!!!
I will check them.
User avatar
Tao Qian
Assistant
 
Posts: 141
Joined: Sun Sep 05, 2010 11:09 pm

Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Sun Fin » Mon Feb 26, 2018 9:51 am

Am I right in thinking that believers of the Yellow Turban campaign would have referred to themselves as followers of ‘The Way of Peace’? Yellow Turban was a derogatory name that came later from the court as they had scarves tied to their heads, right?

Also did the use of the word 'Han' to describe the ethnicity of China's people begin after the fall of the dynasty?
Interested in the history behind the novel? Find a list of english language Three Kingdom sources here.
User avatar
Sun Fin
Librarian of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 7226
Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2007 9:20 pm
Location: The birthplace of radio

Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Jia Nanfeng » Thu Mar 01, 2018 4:41 pm

Sun Fin wrote:Am I right in thinking that believers of the Yellow Turban campaign would have referred to themselves as followers of ‘The Way of Peace’? Yellow Turban was a derogatory name that came later from the court as they had scarves tied to their heads, right?

Zhang Jue taught from the Taipingjing, which are the “Scriptures of Great Peace”. He referred to his movement as the 太平道, which is the “Dao of Great Peace” or “Way of Great Peace” or “Road to Great Peace” (I’ve seen it translated in these various ways, and often without the word ‘Great’).

In the Romance, Zhang Jue is accordingly referred to as the “Great Peace Daoist”. So I would bet they were called Taiping Daoists (“Peace Daoists”) officially.
Have a question about a book or academic article before you buy it? Maybe I have it!
Check out my library here for a list of Chinese history resources I have on hand!
User avatar
Jia Nanfeng
Assistant
 
Posts: 124
Joined: Sun Oct 22, 2017 6:30 pm

Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Sun Fin » Thu Mar 01, 2018 6:29 pm

Thank you Jia! that's really helpful! :D
Interested in the history behind the novel? Find a list of english language Three Kingdom sources here.
User avatar
Sun Fin
Librarian of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 7226
Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2007 9:20 pm
Location: The birthplace of radio

Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Fornadan » Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:07 am

Jia Nanfeng wrote:
Sun Fin wrote:Am I right in thinking that believers of the Yellow Turban campaign would have referred to themselves as followers of ‘The Way of Peace’? Yellow Turban was a derogatory name that came later from the court as they had scarves tied to their heads, right?

Zhang Jue taught from the Taipingjing, which are the “Scriptures of Great Peace”. He referred to his movement as the 太平道, which is the “Dao of Great Peace” or “Way of Great Peace” or “Road to Great Peace” (I’ve seen it translated in these various ways, and often without the word ‘Great’).

In the Romance, Zhang Jue is accordingly referred to as the “Great Peace Daoist”. So I would bet they were called Taiping Daoists (“Peace Daoists”) officially.

According to the Houhanji, Zhang Jue called his movement the "Way of Good" 善道.
Translations from the Book of Jin: http://bookofjin.tumblr.com/index
Fornadan
Academic
 
Posts: 183
Joined: Thu Nov 07, 2013 6:38 pm

Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Jia Nanfeng » Fri Mar 02, 2018 5:11 pm

Fornadan wrote:
Jia Nanfeng wrote:
Sun Fin wrote:Am I right in thinking that believers of the Yellow Turban campaign would have referred to themselves as followers of ‘The Way of Peace’? Yellow Turban was a derogatory name that came later from the court as they had scarves tied to their heads, right?

Zhang Jue taught from the Taipingjing, which are the “Scriptures of Great Peace”. He referred to his movement as the 太平道, which is the “Dao of Great Peace” or “Way of Great Peace” or “Road to Great Peace” (I’ve seen it translated in these various ways, and often without the word ‘Great’).

In the Romance, Zhang Jue is accordingly referred to as the “Great Peace Daoist”. So I would bet they were called Taiping Daoists (“Peace Daoists”) officially.

According to the Houhanji, Zhang Jue called his movement the "Way of Good" 善道.

I hadn't heard that before. :shock:

Googling for Zhang Jue and the "Way of Good" doesn't turn up much for me. Do you happen to have the sentence/paragraph for context?

Also does it say what they called the followers?
Have a question about a book or academic article before you buy it? Maybe I have it!
Check out my library here for a list of Chinese history resources I have on hand!
User avatar
Jia Nanfeng
Assistant
 
Posts: 124
Joined: Sun Oct 22, 2017 6:30 pm

Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Jia Nanfeng » Fri Mar 02, 2018 9:49 pm

So I looked this up a bit more. I got my above rudely-unsourced information from my copy of the Early Chinese Religion series (Lagerwey and Kalinowski). I've read a bit deeper.

In the "Latter Han Religious Mass Movements and The Early Daoist Church" chapter (starting page 1061 in vol. 2):

Before the 4th-century Hou Hanji and the 5th-century Hou Hanshu, a 3rd-century source, of which only quotations survive, calls Zhang’s movement the Way of Great Peace, taiping dao 太平道. Indeed, an occurrence in the Hou Hanshu, unsupported elsewhere and rather ambiguous, states that “Zhang Jue had many of these Great Peace writings.” These “divine writings” 神書 were said to have been found by one Gan Ji 干吉, who transmitted them to his pupil Gong Chong 宮崇 from Langya 琅玡, who in turn submitted them unsuccessfully to the throne under Emperor Shun’s 順帝 rule (126–44). But establishing a possible historical and literary relationship between that text, now lost, and the Taiping jing 太平經 in the Ming Daoist canon remains highly hypothetical. The military titles chosen by the Zhang brothers in 184 (“general of the Lord of Heaven,” tiangong jiangjun 天公將軍, “of Earth,” digong jiangjun 地公將軍, and “of Man,” rengong jiangjun 人公將軍) may seem reminiscent of the Taiping jing’s ideology, which is centered around the heaven-earth-man triad, but the triad already had a long history by that time and belonged to the Chinese archive, in the Foucauldian sense of the word, rather than to a specific tradition.

It seems that the name "taiping dao" (Way of Great Peace) is from a lost 3rd-century source that predates the Hou Hanshu, and that the latter only briefly mentions the name.

The existing quotations from the 3rd-century source alluded to by the paragraph are: 1. in the Sanguozhi, specifically Wei chapter 8.264; 2. in the Hou Hanshu: the above-quoted line, 75.2436; and 3. in Yu Huan's Dianlüe, specifically the Essentials of the Wei.

In Pei Songzhi's commentary of the Sanguozhi biography of Zhang Lu, the latter Dianlüe usage is referenced:

During the Guanghe reign period (178–84), there was in the east Zhang Jue and, in the Hanzhong area (northern Sichuan), Zhang Xiu. Luo Yao taught the people a method for meditating on one’s faults, while Zhang Jue set up the Way of great peace and Zhang Xiu that of the five bushels of rice. The masters of great peace carried a staff with nine sections and used incantations and talismans, teaching the sick to kowtow and meditate on their sins, and then giving them talismanic water to drink.

I'm tempted to assume that the source closest to the event is the most correct. Yet, as the first quote from Early Chinese Religion mentions above, the "Great Peace" scriptures existed before Zhang Jue's usage. (This is outlined at length in the book series, so I won't spend too much time on it due to the sheer volume of information. However, this probably isn't much of a surprise considering Zhang Jue himself was given the revealed text.) It may be that the 3rd-century source inaccurately described the movement with the existing term, Taiping dao; as the book goes on to explain:

Interestingly, about the same period, the earliest firmly dated text of the Way of the Heavenly Master (tianshi dao 天師道) uses the variant expression taiping zhi dao 太平之道 in reference not to Zhang Jue’s historical movement but to the revelations bestowed by “the Dao” upon Gan Ji—not during the 2nd century AD but at the end of the Zhou era! Gan Ji was already becoming a figure of Daoist hagiography, also known as Lord Gan 干君 in Daoist sources. Though there probably was a historical Gan Ji who actually lived toward the end of the Latter Han dynasty, the connection of this character with the tradition of Great Peace and his role as an intercessor in the revelation of Great Peace texts are probably a later Daoist invention.

Elsewhere in this book, they mention the "way of good" that Fornadan brought up:

The leaders of the Yellow Turbans, Zhang Jue 張角 and his two brothers Zhang Liang 梁 (or 良) and Bao 寶, appear primarily in official records as renowned, self-proclaimed “great physicians” (dayi 大醫), i.e., charlatans who for more than ten years—their popular success feeding on the domestic crisis of the 170s—had “served the way of good actions” 事善道, or even “converted” 教化 the world to the “way of good actions.”

The book cites Hou Hanji 24.473–78 for this paragraph.

I don't have the context of the Hanji, but from this writeup, it reads to me more as a mission statement: i.e. the Way of Peace converts the world to the way of good actions. I'd be curious to know how the Hanji or Hanshu use this term "Good"!

I guess my takeaway from this is: Zhang Jue did use the taiping jing (The Scriptures of Great Peace); the term taiping dao (Way of Great Peace) is briefly mentioned in ancient sources but only as references to an even earlier now-lost source. Whether the movement was actually called the Way of Great Peace accordingly to the scriptures seems to be uncertain. Given the name of the scriptures, though, I’d consider “Way of Great Peace” much more likely than “Way of Good”.

Interestingly, in the Hou Hanji (24.476), Hou Hanshu (78.2534-35), and the Zizhi tongjian (58.1864,1867–68), when the Emperor is questioning the movement, they call it merely the huangjin dao, “the Way of the Yellow Turbans". :lol:

It may also be worth noting that this Early Chinese Religion book series refers to the movement as "Taiping Daoism" or more simply "Taiping" in other areas; though this term doesn't appear in any quotations of ancient writings.

tl;dr I’m unsure what the Yellow Turbans were actually called. :P
Have a question about a book or academic article before you buy it? Maybe I have it!
Check out my library here for a list of Chinese history resources I have on hand!
User avatar
Jia Nanfeng
Assistant
 
Posts: 124
Joined: Sun Oct 22, 2017 6:30 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Sanguo Yanyi Symposium

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests

Copyright © 2002–2008 Kongming’s Archives. All Rights Reserved