Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Valvatorez » Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:02 pm

Sun Fin wrote:This is actually a long thread dedicated to the question of what got members in to the 3K era!

Personally I discovered the Three Kingdoms by playing Dynasty Tactics 2 at a mates house.

I live in the UK where I wouldn't say many people at all know about the period at all. Like you a few of my school friends have played some entries in the DW series as it was quite popular in my group at school. None of them had any further interest in the history though. The university I studied at has a Chinese Studies department which two, now inactive, members of this board attended. As I was there when Red Cliff came out that piqued some interest in the wider department but the history never gained any traction. I've met a handful of people who have read RoTK, perhaps three who were slightly more knowledgeable but that's about it.

I presume Zhang Fei was with Liu Bei but I don't know off the top of my head - this is all Zhang Fei's SGZ has to say on that period:

The Former Lord followed Duke Cao and defeated Lü Bu, returning with the former to Xu. Duke Cao assigned Zhang Fei as a General of the Gentlemen of the Household. The Former Lord turned against Duke Cao and went over to Yuan Shao and then Liu Biao.


Ah sorry about that, I never have seen that topic, so I edited my post and will just read that one and post there. Thanks for letting me know :oops:
It's actually a shame that it isn't more known, there's quite a few interesting people and stories from that time period.
About Zhang Fei, so he did go with Liu Bei? Did either of them actually ever fight for Yuan Shao at all or did they end up leaving well before any battles took place?
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Sun Fin » Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:37 pm

No need to apoligise! I've been here for over decade! I really don't expect others to have an encyclopedic memory of threads that were inactive years before they started posting! :lol: I just thought it might be helpful for you as there is a far bigger sample that have posted in that thread then are active now.

Yeah I agree about personalities! You've not just got the military genius of Cao Cao, the inventions of Zhuge Liang but also the even less well known subplots like Zhang Lu's Taoist state and the medical breakthroughs of Hua Tuo!

This is from Liu Bei's SGZ:

The First Sovereign went to Qingzhou, where the Inspector (Ci Shi), Yuan Tan, went to meet to him. The First Sovereign followed Yuan Tan to Pingyuan. Yuan Tan sent someone to notify his father, Yuan Shao. Yuan Shao gathered his generals and went to officially welcome the First Sovereign two hundred miles outside the city. (16) After a month in Yuan Shao’s camp, the First Sovereign’s generals, who earlier had scattered, gradually came back. Lord Cao and Yuan Shao fought each other at Guandu. The Yellow Turban leader, Liu Pi in Runan, rebelled against Lord Cao and allied with Yuan Shao. Yuan Shao asked the First Sovereign together with Liu Pi to lead a force to attack Xuchang. At this time, Guan Yu had returned to the First Sovereign. Lord Cao sent Cao Ren to attack the First Sovereign. The First Sovereign returned the troops to Yuan Shao and desired to take leave.


It says that some of Liu Bei's generals returned when Liu Bei arrived at Pingyuan which I presume includes Zhang Fei. It also suggests that Liu Bei (and therefore his officers as well) took part in the battle of Guan Du and possibly some action at Xu Chang?
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby DragonAtma » Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:38 pm

They certainly caused some distractions for Yuan Shao (they joined forces with Liu Pi and then Gong Du to attack yuzhou), but IIRC they never formally fought in Yuan Shao's armies.

Now, their reunion with Guan Yu and interference in Cao Cao vs Yuan Shao was important enough that Dynasty Warriors pretty much had to include it, but was far enough away that accuracy would mean two battles -- so Dynasty Warriors sticks them in the Guandu battle, despite them not being anywhere near it. With DyW9's open world, though, that may change!


UPDATE: Liu Bei was present at the Battle of Yan Ford as one of the cavalry commanders (the other being Wen Chou), so yes, he definitely fought under Yuan Shao's banner.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Sakae Wu » Mon Dec 18, 2017 4:52 pm

DragonAtma wrote:Keep in mind that during the Guandu era he had a furious Sun Ce/Sun Quan to his east, both Liu Zhang and Shi Xie had grudges against him, and he had just put down Zhang Xian's rebellion. Most likely he could only send out a limited amount of troops, as most of them would have to stay home and discourage his neighbors.


Zhang Xian was the person I came here to ask about. I can't seem to be able to find much information on him either here or google searching.
From the little I gathered it seems he was quite popular in his time and a pretty big problem for Liu Biao.
Was he actually a pretty minor figure and are they any sources out there with a more complete bio?
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Mon Dec 18, 2017 5:22 pm

Sun Fin wrote:Thanks Dong :D. Out of interest which source is that from?


ZZTJ.

Quick question, did you get my pm about the timing of the Christmas Carol gone wrong?

Was he actually a pretty minor figure and are they any sources out there with a more complete bio?


The problem is he was a foe of an other faction, maybe might have been more if he had been a problem for Wei/Shu/Wu due to their history departments (ok less so in Shu, surviving). Here is what Rafe's encyclopaedia has
Zhang Xian (d.200); Nanyang. Having served as a county magistrate in Lingling and Guiyang, Zhang Xian was widely popular in the south of Jing province. Liu Biao appointed him Administrator of Changsha but in 198, resentful at a perceived lack of courtesy from Liu Biao, he was persuaded by Huan Jie to turn against him in distant alliance to Cao Cao. Though Liu Biao sent an army against him, Zhang Xian controlled all the basin of the Xiang River, and Liu Biao's forces gained no success until Zhang Xian died of illness.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Sun Fin » Mon Dec 18, 2017 5:34 pm

Dong Zhou wrote:
Sun Fin wrote:Thanks Dong :D. Out of interest which source is that from?


ZZTJ.

Quick question, did you get my pm about the timing of the Christmas Carol gone wrong?


Thanks mate! See your PMs :D
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Valvatorez » Tue Dec 19, 2017 3:26 am

Sun Fin wrote:No need to apoligise! I've been here for over decade! I really don't expect others to have an encyclopedic memory of threads that were inactive years before they started posting! :lol: I just thought it might be helpful for you as there is a far bigger sample that have posted in that thread then are active now.

Yeah I agree about personalities! You've not just got the military genius of Cao Cao, the inventions of Zhuge Liang but also the even less well known subplots like Zhang Lu's Taoist state and the medical breakthroughs of Hua Tuo!

This is from Liu Bei's SGZ:

The First Sovereign went to Qingzhou, where the Inspector (Ci Shi), Yuan Tan, went to meet to him. The First Sovereign followed Yuan Tan to Pingyuan. Yuan Tan sent someone to notify his father, Yuan Shao. Yuan Shao gathered his generals and went to officially welcome the First Sovereign two hundred miles outside the city. (16) After a month in Yuan Shao’s camp, the First Sovereign’s generals, who earlier had scattered, gradually came back. Lord Cao and Yuan Shao fought each other at Guandu. The Yellow Turban leader, Liu Pi in Runan, rebelled against Lord Cao and allied with Yuan Shao. Yuan Shao asked the First Sovereign together with Liu Pi to lead a force to attack Xuchang. At this time, Guan Yu had returned to the First Sovereign. Lord Cao sent Cao Ren to attack the First Sovereign. The First Sovereign returned the troops to Yuan Shao and desired to take leave.


It says that some of Liu Bei's generals returned when Liu Bei arrived at Pingyuan which I presume includes Zhang Fei. It also suggests that Liu Bei (and therefore his officers as well) took part in the battle of Guan Du and possibly some action at Xu Chang?


:lol: ok thanks, that makes me feel better haha, I thought I should have searched better before asking.
So Liu Bei in some way was under Liu Yu, Gongsun Zan, Liu Biao, Cao Cao, Lu Bu, Tao Qian, Yuan Shao, and even spent some time visiting Wu? I know he didn't really fight for all of them or was allied with all of them, but still for him to have seen and experienced all those different people and situations seems very interesting to have been through all of that and been at the center of a lot of it. So he did fight for Yuan Shao at least once, I actually forget where someone like Zhao Yun would be at the time, so maybe he was one of the ones that was with him at the time as well? Do you think that they would have made any real difference for Yuan Shao if they stayed or was Cao Cao so strong at that point that it wouldn't have mattered?
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Tue Dec 19, 2017 12:56 pm

Not really under Li u Yu, more under generic Han forces. As a warlord I believe the record of allegiance is Gongsun Zan, Tao Qian, Lu Bu (after Lu Bu seized his land), Cao Cao, Yuan Shao, Liu Biao, allied but not under Wu, alliance with Liu Zhang as a guest general.

So he did fight for Yuan Shao at least once, I actually forget where someone like Zhao Yun would be at the time, so maybe he was one of the ones that was with him at the time as well? Do you think that they would have made any real difference for Yuan Shao if they stayed or was Cao Cao so strong at that point that it wouldn't have mattered?


Zhao Yun seems to have rejoined Liu Bei when Liu Bei reached Yuan Shao, Yun having vanished at some point when he left Zan for a funeral.

II would say no, partly becuase Liu Bei left becuase he was sent to open a second front and got defeated so extremely unlikely he could get back to Yuan Shao safely. Had he not been sent to open second front? Having Liu Bei and his able officers is not going to hut but I don't think nearly enough to change the battle
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Valvatorez » Tue Dec 19, 2017 1:55 pm

Well when I listed Wu, and let me know if I'm wrong on any of this, I was thinking mainly around the marriage to SSX, since I thought they kept him there a while. I don't know if he actually was part of any meetings, how long he was there, or was just treated as a guest.
The part with Lu Bu I think is the most interesting, since it seems like they would have drastically different personalities, and wonder if Liu Bei actually was ok with it at some point, or just resented it the entire time.
So you think if he tried to go back to Yuan Shao, he would've been killed? Or maybe Cao Cao would've tried to employ him like he did to Guan Yu, or were they already on very bad terms by then? I'd would like to think Yuan Shao may have been able to win somehow, (if he listened to advisors or could make up his mind) he seemed to have a much larger force at the time than Cao Cao did at the time didn't he?
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Tue Dec 19, 2017 3:53 pm

Zhou Yu did consider "the gilded cage" for Liu Bei but Sun Quan rejected it and Liu Bei always had his own lands, not sure he ever set foot in Wu itself.

The part with Lu Bu I think is the most interesting, since it seems like they would have drastically different personalities, and wonder if Liu Bei actually was ok with it at some point, or just resented it the entire time.


I doubt he was overjoyed at being couped and if I recall rightly, either Liu Bei's troops robbed Lu Bu's men or Lu Bu felt Liu Bei was raising men against him so Liu Bei so I would say he resented it

So you think if he tried to go back to Yuan Shao, he would've been killed? Or maybe Cao Cao would've tried to employ him like he did to Guan Yu, or were they already on very bad terms by then? I'd would like to think Yuan Shao may have been able to win somehow, (if he listened to advisors or could make up his mind) he seemed to have a much larger force at the time than Cao Cao did at the time didn't he?


Liu Bei had taken part in an attempt to kill Cao Cao so I think Cao Cao would kill him. He had already tried trust once with Liu Bei despite concerns about Liu Bei's ambition, I don't think Cao Cao would give him a second chance

Yuan Shao did come close to victory, maybe with some better choices he does win or a bit of luck. In terms of force size, the histories do say Yuan Shao had the bigger numbers but there is some suspicion as not everything adds up (an example is sgz talks of Yuan Shao creating a super long encampment. Cao Cao is able to match this at exactly same size with his supposedly much smaller force. While winning on two or three other fronts). Professor Rafe has floated a theory that Yuan Shao's attack on Cao Cao was a desperate attempt to seize initiative against a growing power that was arguably larger and Wei was bigging up their victory as against the odds
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