Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Sun Oct 22, 2017 11:40 am

Sun Ce linage: Bear in mind Sun Ce's descendant became an issue during Sun Hao's reign. Sun Quan was well aware due to his early reign of what threat a family member can bring and he also had to think beyond his life, Sun ce's lineage as sons of an Emperor provide a problem for Quan's lineage and rulers have to be ruthless in preventing an alternative powerbase.

Regent Marshal and Grand Commander, what differentiates them?



I think people tend to give different names to the same rank. Professor Rafe in his essay on miliatry rankshas The General-in-Chief, however, was not a professional soldier: during Later Han the position was given to the senior male of the imperial relatives by marriage, father or brother of the Empress. By the latter part of the second century, particularly in the time of Liang Ji at the beginning of the reign of Emperor Huan, and of Dou Wu at the beginning of the reign of Emperor Ling, these men held effective power of regency, they ranked with the Excellencies as the highest officials of the empire, and they had authority over the imperial secretariat and the government as a whole. Command of the Northern Army was designed to confirm and consolidate their political power at court and in the capital. From 184, the position was held by He Jin, brother of the Empress He of Emperor Ling.

ValHellen wrote:Add Grand Commandant to that. How high was Jia Xu historically? How did he compare with Sima Yi, Chen Qun and Cao Zhen?

Also anyone has any information on Dong Yun at all?

No citation AND Wikipedia, that's very untrustworthy, but this anecdote sounds too much like it came from somewhere. The problem is it states Dong Yun as succeeding Fei Yi rather than the other way around. I guess it's a false account?


Grand Commandant was one of the Three Excellencies, the most senior though Jia Xu's appointment led to Wu bafflement.

Went Zhuge Liang-Jiang Wan-Fei Yi-Dong Yun-Chen Zhi-Unholy alliance (Huang Hao, Chen Zhi, Jiang Wei) I believe
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Han » Mon Oct 23, 2017 11:37 am

Did Wang Kang historically exist? Or is he fictional? If he existed historically, what did he do?

http://kongming.net/encyclopedia/Wang-Kang

Who were the eight knights of Han Sui and what did they achieve? Is it a historical title?

Who were Yuan Shao best generals and advisors?
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Tue Oct 24, 2017 12:07 pm

Han wrote:Did Wang Kang historically exist? Or is he fictional? If he existed historically, what did he do?

http://kongming.net/encyclopedia/Wang-Kang

Who were the eight knights of Han Sui and what did they achieve? Is it a historical title?


ZZTJ has
The Wu appointed Yong Kai Grand Administrator (taishou) of Yongchang. Lü Kai, the Officer of the Department of Merit (gongcao) of Yongchang, and Wang Kang, the fucheng of Yong-ch'ang, directed the under-officials to refuse to accept him, and to defend the district by closing its borders. Being unable to advance, Yong Kai had Meng Huo, a man of the district, entice and incite the various barbarian tribes, who then followed him.
but don't know anything of him beyond that

Searched the forum and found this list of names
Cheng Yi 成宜
Cheng Yin 程銀
Hou Xuan 侯選
Li Kan 李堪
Liang Xing 梁興
Ma Wan 馬玩
Yang Qiu 楊秋
Zhang Heng 張橫


I don't believe the title is historical, probably novel attempt to give a boost to their reps while ignoring Han Sui's best officers. Local leaders who joined Ma Chao_Han Sui's revolt, Cheng Yin and Hou Xuan would flee to Zhang Lu and surrender to Wei, Li Kan died in battle, Liang Xing was murdered by Zhang Heng, Ma Wan and Zhang Heng vanishes. Yang Qiu retreated to his home area of Anding and surrendered to Cao Cao, allowed to keep his power in the area and helped in fights against local tribes becoming a General and a Marquis
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Han » Tue Oct 24, 2017 2:07 pm

Thanks for the help.

Where can i read the complete Zztj?

Who were Yuan Shao best generals and advisors?
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby waywardauthor » Wed Oct 25, 2017 12:02 am

Han wrote:Thanks for the help.

Where can i read the complete Zztj?

Who were Yuan Shao best generals and advisors?
The entire ZZTJ? That's probably not going to happen. Functionally though, we have just about everything we need.

Rafe de Crespigny translated the ZZTJ starting from the reign of Emperor Huan to the death of Cao Cao, and this can be found on his publications page for free. Achilles Fang translated from the death of Cao Cao to the birth of Jin - a copy of which can be found here. Taishi Ci 2.0 is doing some preliminary translation work in this forum that follows from there, and may well end up completing the time period.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Han » Wed Oct 25, 2017 3:34 am

waywardauthor wrote:
Han wrote:Thanks for the help.

Where can i read the complete Zztj?

Who were Yuan Shao best generals and advisors?
The entire ZZTJ? That's probably not going to happen. Functionally though, we have just about everything we need.

Rafe de Crespigny translated the ZZTJ starting from the reign of Emperor Huan to the death of Cao Cao, and this can be found on his publications page for free. Achilles Fang translated from the death of Cao Cao to the birth of Jin - a copy of which can be found here. Taishi Ci 2.0 is doing some preliminary translation work in this forum that follows from there, and may well end up completing the time period.




Wow thanks. This is very useful!


Who were Yuan Shao best generals and advisors?
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Wed Oct 25, 2017 5:59 am

I think people generally go for likes of Qu Yi, Ju Shou, Tian Feng but within his own time, likes of Yuan Tan, Chunyu Qiong, Han Meng were famed.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Han » Wed Oct 25, 2017 1:21 pm

Im familiar with the first four, but what can you tell me about Chunyu Qiong and Han Meng?


And what about Gao Gan and Gao Lan? Arent those guys kinda decent too?
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Thu Oct 26, 2017 11:56 am

Han wrote:Im familiar with the first four, but what can you tell me about Chunyu Qiong and Han Meng?


And what about Gao Gan and Gao Lan? Arent those guys kinda decent too?


Chunyu Qiong: Famed figure who Emperor Ling hired as one of eight colonel for personal army, joined Yuan Shao and argued against taking in Xian. Pushed for war with Cao Cao and when Ju Shou was demoted, given a third of Ju Shou's command. Led force that Cao Cao lured away before attack on Yan Liang, defended Wu Chou but captured and mutilated. Cao Cao wanted to hire him but was reminded that Qiong might be a bit annoyed at mutilation

Han Meng (or Han Xun, possibly style Juzi, is confusion in sources), sent west to cut off Cao Cao's communications but lost to Cao Ren, transporting supplies when killed by Xu Huang's raid

Gao Gan: I think more noted for his ambition. Persuaded Han Fu to surrender, took part in failed attack on Zhong Yao, surrendered to Wei then rebelled and was defeated

Gao Lan: Surrendered at Guan Du.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby DragonAtma » Thu Oct 26, 2017 12:08 pm

I should add that Gao Gan was Yuan Shao's nephew; when Yuan Shao died, his four provinces were divided between Yuan Tan. Yuan Xi, Yuan Shang, and Gao Gan.

As for Chunyu Qiong, while he reached a high position, I have not heard of any major successes under him; the same is true for Yan Liang and Wen Chou (high rank under Yuan Shao, but no proof of them being skilled).
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