Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Shao Shanshu » Fri Sep 15, 2017 10:03 am

Sun Fin wrote:How would important officers have shown that orders came from them during the period? Would they have had a signature or a seal or something else?


Yes, they did have official seals that are very often mentioned in the text of RoTK.
The tradition held on for centuries in China and other countries of the region. For example in Japan, hanko seals (instead of signatures) exist even today.

http://www.csc.edu.cn/studyinchina/news ... 12&id=4532
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seal_(East_Asia)

A pity my question about a post of the keeper remains unanswered...
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Re: Imperial Seals

Unread postby Sun Fin » Fri Sep 15, 2017 10:12 am

Shao Shanshu wrote:Professor Rafe de Crespigny in "To Establish Peace" mentions there were six imperial seals (beside the famous one lost and supposedly found by Sun Jian).

Given the vast numbers of the Han bureaucracy, was there a special official designated as the Keeper of the Seals?


Upon a quick search through Rafe's work I can't find a reference to one. I know by the Song dynasty there was a 'Keeper of the Imperial Seal' but whether there was a more general role I can't help I'm afraid.

Thanks for you answer, one of those occasions where if I'd stopped to think for slightly longer I'd have known the answer myself :lol:.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Shao Shanshu » Fri Sep 15, 2017 12:28 pm

Thanks, lord Sun.

The Romance has a fictional keeper called Zu Bi, who is killed right before the Emperor's forced abdication.

http://kongming.net/encyclopedia/Zu-Bi

Possibly, Luo Guanzhong invented this office, as nobody real can be found from that time.
That leaves me wondering whether it was the responsibility of some Master of Writing or Imperial Secretary...

:?:
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Xu Yuan » Tue Sep 19, 2017 4:12 pm

What of the Empress Cao's seal? Was that not The Imperial Seal? The one she threw at the courtiers trying to force her to relinquish her rank?

Also, I was reading through Cao Cao's SGZ and one thing caught my eye... in the subjugation of Liu Bei in Xu it mentions that he manged to capture "Liu Bei's officer Xiahou Bo" now I was unaware that Liu Bei ever had any Xiahou under his banner except for Xiahou Lan. That the history goes out of its way to mention capture of this fellow, he must have been of some significant rank, but this is the first I've heard of him. Who was this fellow?
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Sun Fin » Tue Sep 19, 2017 6:40 pm

His entry in Rafe's tome is about a line long and literally says 'an officer under Liu Bei, was captured by Cao Cao in 200.

So nothing new there, looks like all we know about him is that he was captured!
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Fornadan » Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:25 pm

Shao Shanshu wrote:Thanks, lord Sun.

The Romance has a fictional keeper called Zu Bi, who is killed right before the Emperor's forced abdication.

http://kongming.net/encyclopedia/Zu-Bi

Possibly, Luo Guanzhong invented this office, as nobody real can be found from that time.
That leaves me wondering whether it was the responsibility of some Master of Writing or Imperial Secretary...

:?:

There was apparently a Prefect of Insignia and Credentials 符節令, whose office at least during Eastern Han was in charge of storing the imperial seals (the old Qin seal which was too fragile for actual use and six other "working seals") and keeping track of the various tallies sent out with messengers and so on.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Shao Shanshu » Wed Sep 20, 2017 6:21 am

Fornadan wrote:There was apparently a Prefect of Insignia and Credentials 符節令, whose office at least during Eastern Han was in charge of storing the imperial seals (the old Qin seal which was too fragile for actual use and six other "working seals") and keeping track of the various tallies sent out with messengers and so on.


Thank you very much for the answer! That's what I needed.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Shao Shanshu » Mon Sep 25, 2017 4:09 pm

Dong Zhuo appointed Zhang Yang to the posts of General who Establishes Righteousness and Governor of Henei. Was General Zhang in Henei at that moment? Or did he pay a visit to the court?
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Tue Sep 26, 2017 11:22 am

Shao Shanshu wrote:Dong Zhuo appointed Zhang Yang to the posts of General who Establishes Righteousness and Governor of Henei. Was General Zhang in Henei at that moment? Or did he pay a visit to the court?


Zhang Yang was outside the capital having been assigned by He Jin to raise troops and given his activisites (like attacking Shangdang governor and moving his forces around), I doubt he went to capital
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Shao Shanshu » Fri Sep 29, 2017 8:19 am

Thank you for the reply, lord Dong.
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