Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Lord_Cao_Cao » Thu Feb 16, 2017 6:21 pm

He held the rank of general and was Intendant of Henan before the eunuch coup, but I don't know at what time it was precisely. Could have been before or after the YTR. But I do think he was around the capital during that time.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Thu Feb 16, 2017 6:58 pm

ivolga wrote:1. What happened to lady Zou after Wancheng? If her historical fate is unknown, are there any unreliable (e.g. folklore) versions?


2. Loyalty to the lord vs loyalty to the family: which was considered more important at that time? And what happened when they clashed?
As far as I understand, from the Confucian point of view, the family relations should have been valued higher (e.g., Xu Shu changing sides because of his mother).
Yet there are cases when members of the same clan, or even brothers served different warlords and were on different sides in conflicts: Zhuge Jin and Zhuge Liang, Xun Chen and Xun Yu.

Are there other examples of close relatives serving opposing warlords?
In such cases, were they distrusted because of doubts in their true allegiance?
And, according to the ethics of that time, what should be the ideal behavior in such situation: to forget about family relations and continue to serve their respective lords, or to leave the service?


1) Vanished.

2) I think one family saw a guy serving Dong and another for the coalition? I don't mean the Yuan family, some obscure one. Can't for life of me recall who

Bar families descending into killing each other, I don't see any reaction. A defectee who ends up with family ala Pang Lin might get a "how sweet, here's a reward" by the court to look good but the historians and gentry don't seem to have hammered people either way, I think there was a understanding that in such turmoil, sometimes such hard choices had to be made. The Zhuge family shows that one could have relatives in other kingdoms and not have it particularly held against you if talented enough, it depended on the ruler. Cao Cao for example never took to Yang Biao due to Yuan connections yet was fine with others
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Fornadan » Thu Feb 16, 2017 9:59 pm

Sun Fin wrote:Also what was the relationship between the Cao clan and the Yuan clan? I know Cao Cao was subordinate to Yuan Shao initially but was that because of a personal friendship or their status in He Jin's faction or due to a deeper family connection?


I don't think there are any reliable records of any connection between the Cao and Yuan clans. There are some stories about young Cao Cao and Yuan Shao wild exploits together, but these were almost certainly made up later when they were already rivals.

In 188 Emperor Ling decided to establish a new army at Luoyang to be commanded by 8 colonels. Of these 8, Yuan Shao ranked 2nd and Cao Cao 4th. So they would certainly have met each other then. Whether their acquaintance went past appearing at the same state functions I don't think is possible to know.

In 190 Cao Cao first joined the coalition assembly at Suanzao, and only went to Yuan Shao when the gathering at Suanzao proved too disorganized and indecisive to accomplish anything. Presumably at that time he thought Yuan Shao was the best shot at taking down Dong Zhuo. I suppose we can go one further and assume that if Cao Cao had been close to Yuan Shao, he would have gone to him directly.


TLDR: Cao Cao and Yuan Shao would have known each other before the civil wars from joint time in Luoyang but there is no reason to assume any deeper relationship.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Sun Fin » Fri Feb 17, 2017 5:18 pm

Thank you Lord_Cao_Cao and Fornadan. Most helpful!
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby capnnerefir » Fri Feb 17, 2017 5:55 pm

Unless both Yuan Shao biographies on KMA are badly mistranslated, he and Cao Cao were certainly friends in their youth; Yuan Shao's SGZ say so quite plainly. While it doesn't give details, and specific stories from other sources have been called into question, there is no reason to doubt the basic assertion that they were friends.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby lorindir » Fri Feb 17, 2017 6:23 pm

Hi everyone.
I have a doubt that unfortunately have no definitive answer (is a "what if" kind of question), but I would like to hear the point of view from you people who likely knew more about the TK period than myself.
It is about Pang Tong, as far as I knew he was a man from Jiang Dong who would ended serving Liu Bei, he was good as a military strategist but terrible at civil affairs. As for his relationship with his home province's officers, I know nothing (except that some sources says that he mourned the passing of Zhou Gongjin), so my own personal opinion is very flawed. My question is, if Pang Tong had lived longer (to the point of the Shu's invasion to retake Jing), he could have somehow prevented his master from doing so? Would he being target of other officers suspection (because of his origins)? Would he be left behind (like Zhuge Liang)? What do you think would have been his position in such dilemma?
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Sun Fin » Fri Feb 17, 2017 6:29 pm

Now our knowledge on how talented Pang Tong truly was is somewhat limited by his early death but I think there is a decent chance he could have changed that war.

Up until Liu Bei's death Zhuge Liang was purely a civil officer whereas Pang Tong's primary role was a military adviser. Therefore I suspect Liu Bei would have taken him with him when he left ZGL behind. Now the question is whether he could have seen through Lu Xun's plans. I'm not so confident on that as Liu Bei was an able general and he didn't spot it however there is certainly a chance that Pang Tong would have seen something different and may have been able to correct it.

Probably the best person to help Liu Bei in that situation was Fa Zheng as Liu Bei seemed to trust his advice completely.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Sat Feb 18, 2017 4:31 pm

Pang Tong was well respected by not just Shu figures and his old scholar friends but several in Wu, he managed to come up with three plans for invasion of Yi so he was clearly intelligent. His main attribute is Liu Bei was, though a skilled commander, he was very cautoius and Pang Tong seems to have preferred more aggressive/risky tactics.

If Pang Tong disagreed with Yi Ling (hard to know, Liu Bei was probably right to invade Wu) then he would probably be left elsewhere like Zhao Yun (Zhuge Liang was always likely to be left at Cheng Du given his role under Liu Bei historically). If he agreed and went then what he have seen through the plan? Nobody in Shu did, Lu Xun was the only one in Wu to see the fire attack opportunity and that only happened after a failed attack. Where Pang Tong might have helped is Liu Bei's army got into stalemate and Pang Tong's aggressive tactics might have seen Liu Bei's camp trying something else.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Jia Shengde » Sat Feb 18, 2017 8:22 pm

When did Liu Zhang die? Kongming.net says in 219, but also: 'Historically, he became a vassal of Sun Quan after the death of Guan Yu.' According to wikipedia Guan Yu dies in 220 (using the ZZTJ as source). Wikipedia also claims that the date of Liu Zhang's death is unknown. What is correct?
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby capnnerefir » Sun Feb 19, 2017 1:35 am

Jia Shengde wrote:When did Liu Zhang die? Kongming.net says in 219, but also: 'Historically, he became a vassal of Sun Quan after the death of Guan Yu.' According to wikipedia Guan Yu dies in 220 (using the ZZTJ as source). Wikipedia also claims that the date of Liu Zhang's death is unknown. What is correct?


Guan Yu was executed in the final month of Jian'an 24, which was in February of the western year 220. Most of Jian'an 24 took place in the western year 219, which is what leads to confusion. Most people just say 219 to avoid splitting hairs.

After Liu Zhang surrendered to Liu Bei in 214, he was sent to Gong'an, Liu Bei's Jing headquarters. When Shi Ren surrendered Gong'an to Lu Meng, Liu Zhang came into Sun Quan's control. When Sun Quan was appointing officials in Jing, he also appointed Liu Zhang as Governor of Yi as a challenge to Liu Bei's authority there, with his temporary headquarters in Zigui. Liu Zhang passed away shortly after this, although exactly when is unclear. It was almost certainly some time in 220 (during the final month of Jian'an 24 or during Huangchu 1).
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