Jiang Wei vs. Zhuge Liang

[Zhilong]

Oh, certainly it would have broken protocol and brought about some problems. And it would have likely had consequences, ranging in impact from moderate to fatal depending on how such a thing were carried out and by whom. It just seems to me that it is something which has been done out of necessity a number of times in Chinese history, given someone with enough authority, and something worth considering in the case of Shu.

It would have been interesting to witness the way Liu Shan handled daily affairs first hand.

Jiang Wei understandably did not wish to become the next Wei Yan. Marching on the capital in such a manner would cause him irrepairable damage and Liu Shan and the court would no longer support him. Thus, Jiang Wei would have to replace Liu Shan to effect lasting change, but if he replaces him with one of his sons, Jiang Wei will need to keep a close watch at home which detracts from his main interest of external campaigns.

Removing Huang Hao is like treating a symptom and not the underlying illness - there is any number of corrupt ppl at any given time, it is up to the Emperor in the end who he listens to. Jiang Wei did not have the will to tackle the problem at home. The rest of the court also resigned themselves to failure too after Liu Shan was obviously not interested in listening and would demote you for your troubles.

Despite the corrupt regime at home, Jiang Wei felt it would be nice to extend Shu's crap reign to the rest of China and drained the state, ultimately even compromising the defence of Shu and contributing to the demise of the state. These are key differences with ZL.

[James]

Thanks for your insight, Zhilong.

[jiang cheng]

Jiang Wei have a much different priority when compare to Zhuge Liang. Zhuge Liang's ambition was to reunited the entire china while Jiang Wei want to expand Shu's land. Han dynasty was the last thing in his mind.

He had witness the work, time and energy spend by Zhuge Liang. He didnt want to spend that kind of time and ended up dying without achieving anything.

Unlike Zhuge Liang, his court did not place as much confidence as to Zhuge Liang. Given how things were going in the Shu's court, we could not see how long it will last and Jiang Wei's idea was to keep Wei as busy as possible so that they would not have the time to attack them while he could get lucky and give a sucker punch to Wei and hopefully score a decisive victory there.

[Guntank]

Unlike Zhuge Liang, his court did not place as much confidence as to Zhuge Liang. Given how things were going in the Shu's court, we could not see how long it will last and Jiang Wei's idea was to keep Wei as busy as possible so that they would not have the time to attack them while he could get lucky and give a sucker punch to Wei and hopefully score a decisive victory there.

Indeed --- and especially since the period of the Three Kingdoms that Jiang Wei was most prominent in saw the respective kingdoms all weaken internally in some way, especially to the point where more prominent and far more ambitious individuals were able to grasp more power in the Imperial court than their lieges would like. Even in Zhuge Liang and Sima Yi's time, this was not heard of, as the lieges had been strong enough (Liu Bei, Cao Cao, Sun Quan) to retain control and loyalty; Cao Shuang's move against Sima Yi and Sima Yi's subsequent counterattack and murder of Cao Shuang had pretty much started an ugly precedent of one individual wielding absolute power and holding his own liege hostage with it.

And with that precedent existing at the time of tyrants seizing both political and military power such as Sima Yi, Sima Shi and Sima Zhao, Sun Jun and Sun Chen, and especially Zhuge Ke, the Shu court had plenty of reason to fear Jiang Wei going down that same path. It probably was also part of the reason why the triumvirate of Chen Zhi, Jiang Wei and Huang Hao was tolerated for as long as it was: Since Jiang Wei was the only person left in Shu who could defend the country, the courtiers likely felt better as long as they managed to keep actual political power and court influence out of Jiang Wei's hands.

Not to mention that Jiang Wei, loyal as he was to Zhuge Liang's ideals, likely wouldn't have had gone down Zhuge Ke's path on his own volition and would've been self-aware of Zhuge Ke's ultimate fate if nothing else, anyway. That likely held Jiang Wei back from actually contemplating any form of coup d'etat until it really started getting in his way (Huang Hao being bribed by Wei repeatedly to force Jiang Wei to retreat), and even then, it was only until near the very end did Jiang Wei finally had enough of Huang Hao to demand his execution outright in court, and as much as he was capable of it, Jiang Wei went no further.

[Zhou Chie]

The problem really stems from Zhuge Liang, because he had focused all the power inwards, into himself rather than letting anyone else make any decisions, control-freak that he was, nobody else knew how to administrate or lead. Then, rather than teaching Shan, rather than selecting a better successor than Jiang Wei, and rather than dealing with the corruption of the court, he ignored the underlying problems. So in a sense, he is just as guilty as Jiang Wei.

At least, in Wei, the Sima clan kept able-bodied generals around, and encouraged talent, same with Wu up until Sun Hao, and Shu is the only one to have had a 'Generalissimo' like Zhuge Liang, who didn't allow anyone to do anything, without his permission. And with him corrupting the courts for his own uses, men like Huang Hao flourished, with him controlling the military and only allowing men who swore themselves to him, and were not permitted to surpass him, men like Jiang Wei appeared, and with him treating Shan like the Shoguns treated Emperors, Shan became lazy and indulgent.

This in no way though, detracts from Jiang Wei's guilt, as we all know, that between him and Liang, where Liang was a brilliant politician and master-mind (I actually admire Liang, cause of how brilliant and meticulous he is, one of the most interesting Chinese figures of all times), Jiang was a crusading child playing a grown-man's game, least Liang had a general idea of what he was doing, which is all any of us ever have.

[Crazedmongoose]

The problem really stems from Zhuge Liang, because he had focused all the power inwards, into himself rather than letting anyone else make any decisions, control-freak that he was, nobody else knew how to administrate or lead. Then, rather than teaching Shan, rather than selecting a better successor than Jiang Wei, and rather than dealing with the corruption of the court, he ignored the underlying problems. So in a sense, he is just as guilty as Jiang Wei.

Well in fairness Liang didn't pass it to Jiang Wei. There were three ministers before Jiang Wei really got to be that powerful.

[Dong Zhou]

I think the last three users before you Crazed Mongoose were speaking novel.

[Crazedmongoose]

In that case, in terms of novel, Jiang Wei was the obvious successor. Because the novel doesn't have the massive corruption and strain caused by Jiang Wei's campaigns, so in that case Jiang Wei was merely the most sensible and capable military successor to Zhuge Liang.


Also has anybody thought about what Shu would have been without Wei defectees? In both history and novel? Jiang Wei, Xiahou Ba, Wang Ping...like half of their high ranking generals were Wei defectees.

[Zhou Chie]

Huh? No I was speaking of history, not the novel I haven't yet made it to the Jiang Wei part, I'm still at Zhuge Liang and I had to put the book aside due to life-problems.
As for the history, I was not aware of those ministers, could you elaborate Crazed? (I'll keep my post up, so that you could use it as reference/something to defeat in this debate) I think we would all like to hear, what you have to say (I know I'm dying of curiosity over here lol)

[Crazedmongoose]

Well Zhuge Liang didn't give Jiang Wei any great power nor did he set Jiang Wei up as some type of protege after his death immediately.

Zhuge Liang appointed Jiang Wan to be regent after he passed away, and military leadership passed temporarily to Yang Yi, Fei Yi leading the main army, with Jiang Wei and Wei Yan leading the rear guard, so at this point Jiang Wei wouldn't even be ranked in the front two for the army, much less the kingdom which Jiang Wan was in charge of. Jiang Wan was a capable and tolerant regent, under whose rule Shu continued to be well run, though it seems that Jiang Wan didn't have the heart for any more exhaustive wars with Wei and there was peace.

Jiang Wan became ill and transferred most of his power to Dong Yun and Fei Yi, both capable and well regarded administrators and leaders (though he was still regent). When Wei invaded under Cao Shuang, Fei Yi and Wang Ping took charge of the army to defeat them. So you can see, even at this late stage, Jiang Wei was still not the top dog of either domestic or military leadership.

After Jiang Wan and Dong Yun both passed away around similar times, Fei Yi became regent. It was at this time that Jiang Wei really gained a bit more power, but Fei Yi was mostly not interested in more wars against Wei, and only gave Jiang Wei one army unit (not command of the army). There is even some hints that Jiang Wei may have had something to do with the death of Fei Yi (though this isn't that reliable).

It was only after Fei Yi's death, that Jiang Wei took control of the military. But still he wasn't anything approaching regent like Zhuge Liang, Dong Yun and Fei Yi were, as the court at Chengdu was largely controlled by Huang Hao and Zhuge Zhan.

So yeah, you can see how far it is between Zhuge Liang's death and Jiang Wei actually gaining any real power. In between we had two regents (Jiang Wan and Fei Yi), three chancellors (Jiang Wan, Fei Yi and Dong Yun) and three commanders of the military (Yang Yi, Fei Yi, Wang Ping) before Jiang Wei took power (and he didn't take complete power, as he had to share it with Huang Hao and Zhuge Zhan).