Total War Warhammer

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Re: Total War Warhammer

Unread postby LiuBeiwasGreat » Fri Apr 07, 2017 5:19 pm

I am rather disappointed that we will be able to conquer all cities in the up coming game. I liked the idea that you had to stick with locations that were similar to your faction. After all, the dwarves aren't going to settle in wood elf cities and vice versa.
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Re: Total War Warhammer

Unread postby Gray Riders » Fri Apr 07, 2017 5:48 pm

To be honest, I found that the race specific occupation made the game feel less interesting than previous entries in the series. When I was playing dwarfs I knew there was simply no chance I'd ever have to worry about the Vampire Counts, for instance. When a different type faction randomly declared war there was very little gain for them, making it feel like the AI just randomly going berserk with nothing in it for them.
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Re: Total War Warhammer

Unread postby LiuBeiwasGreat » Sat Apr 08, 2017 4:35 am

I disagree, I enjoyed the fact that the vampires had little to no reason to fight with me. It makes sense that they would have no interest in trying to settle dwarven holds. Their objectives is to take over the Empire not conquer the dwarves. Also it made each campaign unique I'm its own way. Neither myself nor the npc factions were just going to blob in random directions like I'm any other strategy game.

I'm the sequel every faction is just going to expand toward the closest foreign city regardless of ownership. Sure the direction might be different from game to game but the factions will lose personality, like in the RTK games they will become a faction of statistics rather then acting like actual characters.

Then again perhaps I just really liked seeing something different and latched on to it, even if it isn't that important :P
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Re: Total War Warhammer

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Sat Apr 08, 2017 9:07 am

Gray Riders wrote:Games Workshop has a terrible reputation. They're very strict compared to most companies that sell wargames that you must use their (very expensive) models instead of anyone else's (not that they can enforce it outside their own stores or official tournaments).


Wouldn't that be normal practise so they can make money?

When the new line came they promised they'd have rules to support all the old models (some are now "generic", though--Vlad's model is used as a normal Vampire, I believe), which one site aptly summed up as the bare minimum to prevent people from burning down their headquarters.
So the theory is the old models were given stupid rules to embarass people into buying the new ones instead. My understanding is the Age of Sigmar specific models had far less of that sort of rule.
Admitedly the game game itself had questionable ideas. For instance in Warhammer when you have to measure distance you measure from the model's base, but in Age of Sigmar you measure from the model itself...so the model itself now has an impact, leading to things like how the best way to use a chariot is to have it charge side first to hit as many enemy units as possible.


I understanding wanting to encourage people to buy your new stuff so you make money but there are good ways to do that and just being a jerk to everyone way of doing that. This is the latter

and that chariot thing is clearly an example of an idea not thought through

Also hilarious is changing the names of standard fantasy races to new, copywritable, silly names. Orc=Orruk, for instance, and skeleton=deathrattle.


Can understand that for money reasons but if you choose bad names as replacements, it just makes you look bad,

Edit:
Apparently the combined map will not use regional occupation--I.E every faction can conquer every region.
https://www.reddit.com/r/totalwar/comme ... dev_diary/


LiuBeiwasGreat wrote:I am rather disappointed that we will be able to conquer all cities in the up coming game. I liked the idea that you had to stick with locations that were similar to your faction. After all, the dwarves aren't going to settle in wood elf cities and vice versa.


I can understand for "mega game" which feels like a sandbox mode, that they release the rules as I think it is mostly going to be played by those that play for the major conquest. In the main camapigns, I prefer that they keep the "can only conquer appropriate lands" as it adds something to the races, it makes sense the dwarfs aren't going to inhabit vampire lands and so on

To be honest, I found that the race specific occupation made the game feel less interesting than previous entries in the series. When I was playing dwarfs I knew there was simply no chance I'd ever have to worry about the Vampire Counts, for instance. When a different type faction randomly declared war there was very little gain for them, making it feel like the AI just randomly going berserk with nothing in it for them.


They burnt a city or two of mine, I burnt a few cities in return and got annoyed with Vlad!
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Re: Total War Warhammer

Unread postby Gray Riders » Sat Apr 08, 2017 3:25 pm

Dong Zhou wrote:Wouldn't that be normal practise so they can make money?

I'm not deep enough into miniatures gaming to fully understand why, but from what I've read GW are apparently especially bad with it. Also read once the official Warhammer RPG insists you may not use non-warhammer miniatures. Again, I have no idea how they want to try enforcing this. Their current main rival, Mantic games, is apparently much more open to the point of having rules for armies that don't use models they produce.

Can understand that for money reasons but if you choose bad names as replacements, it just makes you look bad,

Yeah, I can understand new names but using silly sounding ones doesn't help much.

I mean, this is from the game that had a character named Tiq'Taq'To and a dead frogman named "Lord Kroak" (he still does stuff, though), but even by those standards it's hard to take Deathrattle seriously as a name for a skeleton army.
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Re: Total War Warhammer

Unread postby Sun Fin » Sun Apr 09, 2017 7:08 am

Gray Riders wrote:
Dong Zhou wrote:Wouldn't that be normal practise so they can make money?

I'm not deep enough into miniatures gaming to fully understand why, but from what I've read GW are apparently especially bad with it. Also read once the official Warhammer RPG insists you may not use non-warhammer miniatures. Again, I have no idea how they want to try enforcing this. Their current main rival, Mantic games, is apparently much more open to the point of having rules for armies that don't use models they produce.


Rival is a big word though. GW don't really have any genuine real rivals so they can do what they want. The succession of challengers come in to the market aware aware that most of their potential customers already own GW miniatures, if they are going to take their business going forwards they need to make them feel like their previous investments will not become a waste of money. GW don't really need to worry about that.
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Re: Total War Warhammer

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Sun Apr 09, 2017 11:47 am

I meant to mention with greenskins, waagh is not particularly useful after early stages

Started the vampires, taken east and most of west Slyvania (hoping to woo Von Carstines) with Manfred as my leader, taken Averland and planning to go east. Probably going to end up agent heavy to spread vampire influence for easier land, does feel like vampire armies move very quickly over their own lands, skeleton warriors die a lot in auto battles, I like the purply magic for currency and the four evil books for technology, raising the dead. Having to get used to not being able to global recruit. In terms of opening, ok so wizard is a big vampire fan (that works) but "facing some lame necromancer, have allies to west and dwarfs to south" is not the most compelling opening

Yeah, I can understand new names but using silly sounding ones doesn't help much.

I mean, this is from the game that had a character named Tiq'Taq'To and a dead frogman named "Lord Kroak" (he still does stuff, though), but even by those standards it's hard to take Deathrattle seriously as a name for a skeleton army.


Deathrattle just about works for a theme park ride. Not as a serious faction in a game and as for the lords, those are comedy names
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Re: Total War Warhammer

Unread postby Gray Riders » Sun Apr 09, 2017 2:35 pm

Sun Fin wrote:Rival is a big word though. GW don't really have any genuine real rivals so they can do what they want. The succession of challengers come in to the market aware aware that most of their potential customers already own GW miniatures, if they are going to take their business going forwards they need to make them feel like their previous investments will not become a waste of money. GW don't really need to worry about that.

As mentioned a lot of my tabletop industry knowledge is very second hand. I know GW is way bigger than Mantic, but I understand Mantic scooped up a lot of the angry Warhammer fanbase with Kings of War (I know many others just stayed with 8th or moved on to the the unofficial fan sequels).

Dong Zhou wrote:Started the vampires, taken east and most of west Slyvania (hoping to woo Von Carstines) with Manfred as my leader, taken Averland and planning to go east. Probably going to end up agent heavy to spread vampire influence for easier land, does feel like vampire armies move very quickly over their own lands, skeleton warriors die a lot in auto battles, I like the purply magic for currency and the four evil books for technology, raising the dead. Having to get used to not being able to global recruit. In terms of opening, ok so wizard is a big vampire fan (that works) but "facing some lame necromancer, have allies to west and dwarfs to south" is not the most compelling opening

Vampire notes: Winds of Death is by far the best damage spell in the game if you flank with it. An overcast version costs 28 or so winds but is worth it. It doesn't deviate much, so you can have your infantry hold a line and once the enemy crashed against you have your caster flank to the side and fire it down the enemy lines. If the caster's mounted you can also shoot at the enemy from the side while they approach. Damage is crazy--even Chaos Chosen take huge damage (though not many die). Lesser units like Dwarf Warriors basically melt on impact.
Shadow magic's pendulum can work similarly, but with much lower damage for much less magic.

The "grave site" markers after a large battle don't go away, and actually start producing better units as the game goes on.

I recommend rushing fo Grave Guard ASAP. Skeleton Warrior to Grave Guard is possibly the biggest upgrade in the game; skeletons die easily to everything, while Grave Guard are great tanks and hit very hard, especially against infantry (anti large and anti infantry also increase melee attack, so they have a better hit chance than they seem). Skeletons are clearly inferior to Orc Boyz and Dwarf Warriors, but Grave Guard are worthy matches for Big 'Uns and Longbeards (Grave Guard can win one unit to one unit by enveloping, with multiple units fighting they're probably at a disadvantage).

VC start is slow because vampire vs vampire fights are dull grinds; it picks up when you fight other factions.
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Re: Total War Warhammer

Unread postby Sun Fin » Sun Apr 09, 2017 2:38 pm

Gray Riders wrote:
Sun Fin wrote:Rival is a big word though. GW don't really have any genuine real rivals so they can do what they want. The succession of challengers come in to the market aware aware that most of their potential customers already own GW miniatures, if they are going to take their business going forwards they need to make them feel like their previous investments will not become a waste of money. GW don't really need to worry about that.

As mentioned a lot of my tabletop industry knowledge is very second hand. I know GW is way bigger than Mantic, but I understand Mantic scooped up a lot of the angry Warhammer fanbase with Kings of War (I know many others just stayed with 8th or moved on to the the unofficial fan sequels).


In all fairness my knowledge is fairly out of date (just over a decade since I started wasting a money on MTG rather than GW :lol: ) and I never played fantasy. However I've never seen any Mantic product but GW shops are common.
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Re: Total War Warhammer

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Mon Apr 10, 2017 9:07 am

Thanks for the tips Gray, I do love Raise the Dead and grabbed Gray Guards. Got 5 provinces and going to turtle for awhile as I need to build up my cavalry forces (I got sucked into just building up east sylvnia rather then building up cavalry buildings in the west) and becuase everything feels expensive at the moment
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