Used Games, Industry killer or Gaming Savior?

Discuss everything game-related including consoles and console games and hardware, pen and paper roleplaying (e.g. D&D), modern sports, and more.

Do you purchase used games

Yes, whenever i can
6
46%
Yes, if its the only way to get the game
3
23%
Occasionally, if i'm not sure if i will like the game
0
No votes
No, i'd rather have the new copy
3
23%
Absolutely not, i think this is a terrible thing
1
8%
 
Total votes : 13

Re: Used Games, Industry killer or Gaming Savior?

Unread postby Separation Anxiety » Fri Apr 06, 2012 5:54 am

Game devs arent the people trying to market the games... thats marketing. But you have already done your job making the games. But you have been cut out by the people selling your game. Why would anyone buy your freshly made game from you for 20 bucks if they can go get it for cheaper? If they couldnt get the game from those guys they would be forced to come to you. And now you are making 20 bucks for each 200 games as opposed to the 100 games you initially sold. Thus you could take a hit on profits by lowering your price.

You may not feel sympathetic, but thats your opinion. If you think that companies like gamestop deserve to be able to profit off anothers hard work and cut those guys out of the equation thats all on you.

Do you really think that games prices would stay the exact same if they couldnt be pirated? You dont think prices would drop a lot faster? If after a month or so you expect a drop off in sales due to used games, why would you bother cutting the price, you arent doing yourself any favors. Once game prices drop the used games look more attractive, because saving 5 bucks on a 30 dollar game is more attractive than saving 5 on a 60 dollar game.

If you really think programmers are in high demand you are fooling yourself. These guys have little to no job security. And generally, compared to the amount of time most devs spend without a job for the most part, they arent making a lot of money. The average developers salary is 81000 USD. While that is a lot of money you have to take into account that there are lots of high salary guys. Look at Casey Hudson of Bioware or Metzen from Blizzard. These guys make ridiculous salaries. But once a game is released off go a ton of developers into the unemployed ranks.

Gamestop isnt effective at marketing. All the marketing they do is on the buck of the developers. Who do you think pays for all the ads in game magazines, stores, and websites? You think Gamestop isnt making money off developers? You think they dont charge to have giant posters in stores, splash banners on gamestop.com or ads in Game Informer? Come on. Gamestop isnt marketing anything but themselves. Any time you see them seeming to advertise a game its because someone paid them to.

And digital sales tend to be cheaper. Star Wars Old Republic was 50 bucks to download off origin, as was Kingdoms Of Amalur Reckoning. You dont believe me... right now the Darkness 2 is 12 bucks on amazon to download, compared to 48 bucks for PS3 or 360 and 35 for PC. I'd say thats sizable savings. Risen 2 Dark Waters is 45 to download, but 60 to buy.

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=sr_nr_n_11?rh=n%3A468642%2Cn%3A!11846801%2Cn%3A979455011&bbn=11846801&ie=UTF8&qid=1333691649&rnid=11846801

Browse through there and tell me that you wont save money by cutting out physical media.
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Re: Used Games, Industry killer or Gaming Savior?

Unread postby TheGreatNads » Fri Apr 06, 2012 6:32 am

Separation Anxiety wrote:You may not feel sympathetic, but thats your opinion. If you think that companies like gamestop deserve to be able to profit off anothers hard work and cut those guys out of the equation thats all on you.


That's the real world guy, Santa Claus doesn't exist and retailers make a percentage of the profit. You think Valve doesn't make a profit from every game sold through their service? Or that console manufacturers don't make money from licensing fees both to develop a game on a platform and then to distribute it on the platform? If you want to release a game to the larger market, middle men are going to make a cut, I don't know it's only Gamestop that ticks you off when they are only one of many. Publishers make deals with Gamestop left and right for exlusive DLC and the like, I have a hard time blaming Gamestop for anything when the the majority of the industry chooses to be so involved with them.

Separation Anxiety wrote:Do you really think that games prices would stay the exact same if they couldnt be pirated?


Do you really think publishers will not try to squeeze ever cent they can get out of consumers?

Separation Anxiety wrote:You dont think prices would drop a lot faster? If after a month or so you expect a drop off in sales due to used games, why would you bother cutting the price, you arent doing yourself any favors. Once game prices drop the used games look more attractive, because saving 5 bucks on a 30 dollar game is more attractive than saving 5 on a 60 dollar game.


Generally speaking, game sales are always at their highest close to launch of the game, used games or not.

Separation Anxiety wrote:If you really think programmers are in high demand you are fooling yourself. These guys have little to no job security. And generally, compared to the amount of time most devs spend without a job for the most part, they arent making a lot of money. The average developers salary is 81000 USD. While that is a lot of money you have to take into account that there are lots of high salary guys. Look at Casey Hudson of Bioware or Metzen from Blizzard. These guys make ridiculous salaries. But once a game is released off go a ton of developers into the unemployed ranks.


Lol there are high salaries in all kinds of positions, that doesn't change the fact that these are individuals working in a high skilled position, highly in demand position, and their salaries reflect it.

Separation Anxiety wrote:Gamestop isnt effective at marketing. All the marketing they do is on the buck of the developers. Who do you think pays for all the ads in game magazines, stores, and websites?


The very fact that a games only retailer exists where people can easily find games they won't likely find at Wal Mart and may never have ever heard of potentially provides enormous opportunities for getting the word out about a game. Nevermind Gamestop having policies where employees encourage people to make pre-orders on various games. You'll never hear that kind of thing at a Wal-Mart.


Separation Anxiety wrote:And digital sales tend to be cheaper. Star Wars Old Republic was 50 bucks to download off origin, as was Kingdoms Of Amalur Reckoning. You dont believe me... right now the Darkness 2 is 12 bucks on amazon to download, compared to 48 bucks for PS3 or 360 and 35 for PC. I'd say thats sizable savings. Risen 2 Dark Waters is 45 to download, but 60 to buy.

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=sr_nr_n_11?rh=n%3A468642%2Cn%3A!11846801%2Cn%3A979455011&bbn=11846801&ie=UTF8&qid=1333691649&rnid=11846801

Browse through there and tell me that you wont save money by cutting out physical media.


Browse through the prices of console games sometime and tell me you can't find physical games cheaper on Amazon. It's easy to find an example that seems to support a point, it's harder to find larger cases that actually prove something. And on that point you're talking about a current situation where both physical media and downloadables are easy to acquire. In a future where digital distribution becomes the only choice for many products(which you seem to be advocating) do you seriously believe publishers won't just charge the same price as they do now for retail products? The only way they are likely to change is if their products stop selling. Flexible pricing is an option in the physical retail space but publishers simply choose not to utilize it. Games like Deadly Premonition were successful selling for $20 on the market, plenty of others could but it is up to the industry to take advantage of the fact that there are different levels of demand for their products. Instead they treat almost everything like it is the same.
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Re: Used Games, Industry killer or Gaming Savior?

Unread postby Jordan » Sat Apr 07, 2012 9:27 am

You may not feel sympathetic, but thats your opinion. If you think that companies like gamestop deserve to be able to profit off anothers hard work and cut those guys out of the equation thats all on you.


Gamestop is not entirely parasitic. If you don't believe that, see how well a company would do if Gamestop decided to stop selling their games. It would be completely ruinous because so many people shop at Gamestop. With or without gamestop, there would always be a market for re-selling or renting. It might take place in an overt location like a business or simply happen under the table, but it would be there.

Do you really think that games prices would stay the exact same if they couldnt be pirated?


Absolutely. I don't believe piracy has made a huge impact at all on the prices of video games. There was no piracy on PS3 for a long time, but games were still coming out at release costing 60$. Compare this to the prices of games on DS, Wii and PSP. All of those gaming systems have rampant piracy but more reasonably priced games. So why were the PS3 games so expensive? The reason is because of all the money that video game corporations blow on development (read: Graphics), marketing and other costs. Piracy is a pathetic scapegoat. It is a problem but it is not the reason for increased game prices. Increasing game prices are the result of higher costs to develop games and greed.

Consumers are growing tired of big video game company bullshit. It is getting annoying that the video game industry is changing from one of selling GOODS that are the property of their owners to one of selling SERVICES that are owned and lent out by the business. If the trend continues toward digitizing everything, limiting content in games and so on, we can expect payment models in the future that involve monthly fees (akin to the MMORPG subscription model) for all video games. Honestly...it's already begun. Microsoft requires you to pay a fee to use their online services on Xbox, even after you buy the console. That was a big sign that video games were moving from goods to services...at the expense of the consumer. Imagine if a book was sold to people that was locked and would not open unless you entered an activation code provided by the original author.
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Re: Used Games, Industry killer or Gaming Savior?

Unread postby Separation Anxiety » Sun Apr 08, 2012 2:11 am

Jordan wrote:Gamestop is not entirely parasitic. If you don't believe that, see how well a company would do if Gamestop decided to stop selling their games. It would be completely ruinous because so many people shop at Gamestop. With or without gamestop, there would always be a market for re-selling or renting. It might take place in an overt location like a business or simply happen under the table, but it would be there.

Absolutely. I don't believe piracy has made a huge impact at all on the prices of video games. There was no piracy on PS3 for a long time, but games were still coming out at release costing 60$. Compare this to the prices of games on DS, Wii and PSP. All of those gaming systems have rampant piracy but more reasonably priced games. So why were the PS3 games so expensive? The reason is because of all the money that video game corporations blow on development (read: Graphics), marketing and other costs. Piracy is a pathetic scapegoat. It is a problem but it is not the reason for increased game prices. Increasing game prices are the result of higher costs to develop games and greed.

Consumers are growing tired of big video game company bullshit. It is getting annoying that the video game industry is changing from one of selling GOODS that are the property of their owners to one of selling SERVICES that are owned and lent out by the business. If the trend continues toward digitizing everything, limiting content in games and so on, we can expect payment models in the future that involve monthly fees (akin to the MMORPG subscription model) for all video games. Honestly...it's already begun. Microsoft requires you to pay a fee to use their online services on Xbox, even after you buy the console. That was a big sign that video games were moving from goods to services...at the expense of the consumer. Imagine if a book was sold to people that was locked and would not open unless you entered an activation code provided by the original author.



Yes it may be true that if you get rid of gamestop selling used games the market would be there. But you would have done some serious damage to it. The other options like Best Buy have only select locations with the used games. Amazon requires you to send them their games in the mail. Pawn shops are still around but they give you even less money than gamestop(and the games are generally cheaper) but Gamestop is the head of the snake. You kill its used games sales then used game sales tank. You have to jump through no hoops with gamestop.

You dont think piracy effects games? Ever played the witcher 2? You might be one of the million or so that have bought that brilliant game. Or you could be one of the over 4 million that CD Projekt found to have pirated their game. You really think that didnt effect their pricing at all with nearly 4 times more people pirating their game as buying it. That probably didnt factor into them selling almost the exact same game months later on XBOX 360 for 60 bucks. Oh did i mention i got that game in November for 50 bucks brand spanking new. Someone wanna explain this to me? So now that the games been pirated 4 million times how many times will a used copy of Witcher 2 on 360 be sold and not give them any money just like all those pirates did?

EA isnt ruining games by charging more. Its the fact that they are bastardizing games themselves. They are ruining major legit franchises. Their handiwork has shown on plenty of games because they look out for the bottom line. They force games out before they are completely done (dragon age 2, mass effect 3, etc) They arent forcing you to buy extra stuff. They are forcing people to buy online passes if they didnt buy the game new. If you arent giving them money why on earth would they give you access to the same features a paying customer has? And Microsoft allows you near full usage of xbox live for free. You just have to pay to use any of the above and beyond services. If you want to play your games you dont need xbox live, but you do need to pay for all those things that they had to pay for. You think signing deals with MLB and such is free? I understand complaints about netflix not being a silver item, but look at what PSN has and tell me that there is no difference between psn and XBL.

Also, required monthly fees have been squashed by Sony, Microsoft and Nintendo. There was a rumor that CoD would adopt a pay to play online plan and Sony and MS both said that if they did that they would allow the game on their consoles. The only games that are approved for subs are MMOs like Final Fantasy and such and those dont require a sub to XBL anyways.

Do people not think that a developer is entitled to make money nowadays. You realize that their work has a price on it. You may not like it, but thats the way things work. It sounds like you people are more self entitled than the people you are calling self entitled. "HOW DARE I HAVE TO PAY FOR EXTRA FEATURES THAT I AM CHOOSING TO USE"


Oh and about the book with the activation code. Ever used a kindle? You dont get to share those. You dont have an activation code but you cant let someone else have it in anyway short of giving them your kindle. And thats a pretty little analogy, but no game requires an activation code to play, it only requires it to access certain features, which you could say are bonus features not truly integral to the game. But then again some people feel entitled to have everything without paying the people who made it anything.
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Re: Used Games, Industry killer or Gaming Savior?

Unread postby Shu Ryorin » Sun Apr 08, 2012 5:50 am

Separation Anxiety, from what I've read of this thread so far it looks like your main objection is to Game Stop and their business strategies. Let's say friend A buys a game (I don't know, FFXIII-2 or something) and after he plays it he, knowing that he isn't one to replay games, decides to sell it for twenty bucks to friend B who loves Final Fantasy but doesn't have a lot of money to spend on video games. That's a used game transaction with no middle man. Would you object to this as well? Should friend A have just kept his game for all eternity, gathering dust and taking up space? Should friend B have gotten over her hesitancy to spend lots of money on games and bought a new copy? What if friend B rejects friend A's offer so that she can buy a new copy, only she puts it off for too long and the game stops being produced? At that point whether she buys it new or used, the money still won't go to the game developers. I am honestly curious to hear what you think.

I personally like to get new games when I can because I like having everything the game comes with and the reduced chance of the game being damaged, but I will get it used if a new one's not readily available. Then again, I'm at the ripe-old-age of twenty-two and I like to live in the past and play old games. Brand new games, and even new consoles, aren't something I typically buy. Heck, my newest console is a Nintendo DS that I received as a gift, and a lot of money was saved by getting used. So I'm already biased towards accepting used games.

At the same time, however, I view games as commodities. Once Square has sold a copy of a game to BestBuy, that particular copy of the game is BestBuy's property to sell as they see fit. Once Mysterious Customer X has purchased it from BestBuy, that particular copy of that particular game is the property of Mysterious Customer X. Mysterious Customer X has the same right to sell his property that BestBuy has, and I don't see why video games should be the exception. I have the same view towards used books. If one decides to pay extra money to go through fewer middlemen and thus increase their chances of befitting the creator more directly, that is up to them, but I don't think all used game transactions should be condemned.

EDIT: Let it be know that I've only considered single-player, not-online games like I play. Other kinds may have other ramifications.
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Re: Used Games, Industry killer or Gaming Savior?

Unread postby Jordan » Sun Apr 08, 2012 6:36 am

I think they sold The Witcher for more on 360 because they figured that since people who bought a 360 are willing to pay extra money per month for online and all kinds of microtransaction bullshit, they'd be willing to pay extra money for a video game. The logic being used here makes absolutely no sense. The bigger piracy problem is, by far, on PC rather than the Xbox 360. If piracy actually made a difference in pricing, CD Projekt should have sold it for more on PC since that's where the problem lies. This, again, just reaffirms the point I made before. Why are games so expensive on Xbox 360 and PS3, both consoles with relatively low piracy levels, yet are often found cheaper on systems with high piracy levels? One reason is that corporations consider the average 360/PS3 console gamer to be willing to spend more on games. Another reason is that piracy isn't a real factor in pricing. It affects games and the industry in a negative way, undoubtedly. But it doesn't affect pricing significantly. What affects pricing is corporations squeezing their customers and rising development costs.

I don't want to touch too much more on this argument about piracy, since it's irrelevant, but I will say this: It's not necessarily the case that every one of those 4 million+ downloads is a different person. It's also not necessarily the case that none of the people who pirated it later bought the game. Nor is it the case that all the people who pirated it would have bought it if piracy wasn't available. Those 4 million+ downloads don't directly translate into 4 million+ lost sales, no matter how much the industry tries to claim this is the case. It's very possible that somebody could have pirated it, enjoyed it, and then bought it, or pirated it and then stopped playing it 5 minutes later and never had the intention of buying it to begin with. I really don't know or care about the Witcher 2 enough to comment more, so that's all I have to say.

Do people not think that a developer is entitled to make money nowadays. You realize that their work has a price on it. You may not like it, but thats the way things work. It sounds like you people are more self entitled than the people you are calling self entitled. "HOW DARE I HAVE TO PAY FOR EXTRA FEATURES THAT I AM CHOOSING TO USE"


I think if they're going to raise prices on games just for the purpose of making more money, I'm not going to buy their shit. I never said they couldn't do whatever the hell they wanted. It's just obnoxious to me personally. I don't see how that's self-entitled. That's what being a consumer means. I give them my money and sustain them. They don't do anything for me except provide a product which I can choose to buy or ignore. I might not buy videogames for any number of reasons: these are my prerogatives as a consumer. The problem is that video game companies now no longer even provide a product. They now want to change things so that they're only providing a service. This is a bad thing for consumers and essentially just a new way for companies to maximize revenue for absolutely zero greater benefit to their customers. I can't really fathom anybody defending this if they're not part of the industry. It's like somebody arguing in favor of constantly increasing gas prices. Why would I go out of my way to support something that I obviously don't like and that is of no benefit to me?

Edit: To add to this argument, as a consumer, I have options for what I support as well. There are companies that force their customers to wade through DRM, sign onto their shitty service in order to play their games and ban customers from playing if they say anything negative about them. Then there are companies like Nintendo (at least for the time being. They're going to adopt DLC soon and likely become corrupted from there). When I buy a game from Nintendo, this is what I get: The full game with no strings attached. When I start the game, usually I get a message such as "Thank you for playing. We hope you enjoy the game." After that I'm free to play. If I bought the game new, I get points that I can redeem for swag. The points are tiny and the swag is pretty trivial, but it's a nicer gesture than "BUY OUR GAME NEW OR YOU CAN'T PLAY IT AT ALL." Which company treats its consumers better? The answer should be indisputable regardless of your product preferences.

Oh and about the book with the activation code. Ever used a kindle? You dont get to share those. You dont have an activation code but you cant let someone else have it in anyway short of giving them your kindle. And thats a pretty little analogy, but no game requires an activation code to play, it only requires it to access certain features, which you could say are bonus features not truly integral to the game. But then again some people feel entitled to have everything without paying the people who made it anything.


No I haven't used a Kindle because it's a scam. Just like what these video game corporations are trying to pull by changing the industry from one based on selling commodities to one based on selling services.

As for EA, they're a shitty company both for the way they treat their customers and for the way they've bought out and then ruined franchises.
Last edited by Jordan on Sat Apr 14, 2012 12:18 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Used Games, Industry killer or Gaming Savior?

Unread postby TheGreatNads » Fri Apr 13, 2012 10:39 pm

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Re: Used Games, Industry killer or Gaming Savior?

Unread postby Jordan » Sat Apr 14, 2012 12:08 am

Great article. Actually, in recent years I barely ever trade in games, but when I do, it's because the games are shit and I had buyers' remorse paying for them.
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Re: Used Games, Industry killer or Gaming Savior?

Unread postby MhiHayoli » Sat Apr 14, 2012 8:26 am

I buy used games when I have no other option of getting them.

Mostly that happens when I try to gain older games like Amiga, Nintendo and so on. I'm quite a collector on such stuff :) And I have an incredible collection so far ^_^

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Re: Used Games, Industry killer or Gaming Savior?

Unread postby Ranbir » Sat Apr 14, 2012 10:11 am

Why are games so expensive on Xbox 360 and PS3


Licensing. Console makers make money off games being sold, not the console itself.
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