What? No Skyrim thread?

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Re: What? No Skyrim thread?

Unread postby Nazne » Thu Nov 17, 2011 8:24 am

Mikhail, have you leveled Smithing to any great extent, and are you able to improve the Nightingale armor? I couldn't do so even around level ~75 and with plenty of void salts, so I'm wondering if it's bugged in some way. I agree, it does look awesome, but I'd rather have proper defense instead.

I've built my entire first set of Dragon armor around fortifying Marksman, so I can pretty much shoot anything to death from the shadows, and Dragons have been attacking often enough that I have more than enough scales to make a second set if I want to switch up for a change. I wonder if this counts as endgame equipment? (although I guess I'd have to have a proper smithed Daedric bow if I really wanted to be endgame, blah)

Note to anyone who might want to mod: could you change the perk trees to perk graphs? At the moment you can't go "backwards" from a more advanced perk to a lower-level perk, but that seems totally arbitrary; if I'm Smithing level 100 and know Dragon smithing, I should be able to learn Daedric smithing without first having to go through Dwemer, Orcish, and Ebony D:
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Re: What? No Skyrim thread?

Unread postby Bryan » Thu Nov 17, 2011 11:59 am

Nazne wrote:Note to anyone who might want to mod: could you change the perk trees to perk graphs? At the moment you can't go "backwards" from a more advanced perk to a lower-level perk, but that seems totally arbitrary; if I'm Smithing level 100 and know Dragon smithing, I should be able to learn Daedric smithing without first having to go through Dwemer, Orcish, and Ebony D:
Personally I think they should have structured the Smith tree a bit differently, with Dragon and Daedric not tied to Glass/Ebony, but maybe further up the middle through the Arcane Blacksmith. That said, I'm personally not down with the whole reverse engineering from an advanced perk... might as well just use the console to give yourself the perk. That goes doubly so for Daedric, which is a heavy armor. Call me strict, stupid, or whatever, but I feel if you haven't specced through the heavy armor branch to reach the top, heavy armor shouldn't be available to you, even though once you unlock Dragon it allows you to make Dragon plate armor, doesn't it? Haven't maxed out to dragon yet (probably going to stick with Daedric as right now it's statistically better than the Dragon plate).
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Re: What? No Skyrim thread?

Unread postby Nazne » Thu Nov 17, 2011 7:34 pm

Bryan wrote:Personally I think they should have structured the Smith tree a bit differently, with Dragon and Daedric not tied to Glass/Ebony, but maybe further up the middle through the Arcane Blacksmith. That said, I'm personally not down with the whole reverse engineering from an advanced perk... might as well just use the console to give yourself the perk. That goes doubly so for Daedric, which is a heavy armor. Call me strict, stupid, or whatever, but I feel if you haven't specced through the heavy armor branch to reach the top, heavy armor shouldn't be available to you, even though once you unlock Dragon it allows you to make Dragon plate armor, doesn't it? Haven't maxed out to dragon yet (probably going to stick with Daedric as right now it's statistically better than the Dragon plate).


That argument is also valid, but my issue with that is twofold:

1. You can make Dragon heavy and light armor the moment you reach Smithing 100 and get the perk. Doesn't this indicate that light and heavy armors aren't "fundamentally" different enough (in-universe) to warrant completely separate paths?

2. If smithing had been structured differently such that weapons were in a separate category from armor, I'd be totally cool with that. But the problem is that by going through the Light Armor tree, you're locked out from crafting any of the most powerful weapons (Glass is supposedly 25% weaker than Daedric in terms of base damage.) If there had been a distinction between "light" weaponry and "heavy" weaponry, I'd even have been cool with that; at least this would be transparent. But the system as it stands seems a bit unfair, because weapons don't actually depend on armor type and shouldn't be limited only to heavy-armored tanks.

EDIT: ALSO. Do not attempt to put bows in a weapon rack designated for left/right weapons. The rack will eat your bow permanently. I haven't tried with swords or one-handed weapons other than the greatswords originally put on them, but I'm a bit leery of going near them right now.
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Re: What? No Skyrim thread?

Unread postby Bryan » Thu Nov 17, 2011 8:05 pm

Nazne wrote:That argument is also valid, but my issue with that is twofold:

1. You can make Dragon heavy and light armor the moment you reach Smithing 100 and get the perk. Doesn't this indicate that light and heavy armors aren't "fundamentally" different enough (in-universe) to warrant completely separate paths?

2. If smithing had been structured differently such that weapons were in a separate category from armor, I'd be totally cool with that. But the problem is that by going through the Light Armor tree, you're locked out from crafting any of the most powerful weapons (Glass is almost 25% weaker than Daedric in terms of base damage.) If there had been a distinction between "light" weaponry and "heavy" weaponry, I'd even have been cool with that; at least this would be transparent. But the system as it stands seems a bit unfair, because weapons don't actually depend on armor type and shouldn't be limited only to heavy-armored tanks.
Again, I think that they need to restructure the tree a bit. It's a bit confounding as it is.

Honestly, I think that a tree that lets you spec into the different materials straight up as opposed to the Light/Heavy attachments (as well as weapon restrictions) would have been a bit more appropriate. Maybe a questline with multiple open-ended branches that goes on for a bit differentiating the difference between Weapon, Armor, and Jewelry (I love circlets), where, depending on the specialization followed, it would let you develop further into the different areas. A focus on two-handed weapons or light armor, for instance.
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Re: What? No Skyrim thread?

Unread postby Nazne » Thu Nov 17, 2011 11:11 pm

Bryan wrote:Again, I think that they need to restructure the tree a bit. It's a bit confounding as it is.

Honestly, I think that a tree that lets you spec into the different materials straight up as opposed to the Light/Heavy attachments (as well as weapon restrictions) would have been a bit more appropriate. Maybe a questline with multiple open-ended branches that goes on for a bit differentiating the difference between Weapon, Armor, and Jewelry (I love circlets), where, depending on the specialization followed, it would let you develop further into the different areas. A focus on two-handed weapons or light armor, for instance.


That would have been interesting as well - I wonder how much customization could be done with perk trees? I guess I'll have to wait until they release the mod toolkit again to find out.

Story time: While trekking up the Throat of the World, I got ambushed by a snow bear, panicked, and used the ice shout as the bear was lunging. Due to conservation of momentum, the frozen bear flew right past my character and fell off a cliff. (Apparently ice is such a good airbag that it didn't even die from the fall! But at least it was now out of the way.)
先主復領益州牧,諸葛亮為股肱,法正為謀主,關羽、張飛、馬超為爪牙,許靖、麋竺、簡雍為賓友。
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Re: What? No Skyrim thread?

Unread postby Mikhail » Fri Nov 18, 2011 12:08 am

Finally beat the main campaign missions. It was pretty good. Lots of dragons, obviously, and nothing is more fun than slaughtering dragons. The story of it was actually kind of cool, but the battles with Alduin were kind of a let down... I guess I was looking for something slightly more epic but it was pretty good nonetheless.

Another thing, in addition to the whole smithing thing and how it levels up with whatever you make, not the quality, it takes precisely 370 items created to get to level 100.

One thing I need to figure out though is if there are any other skills that I can level up in the same manner. I want to get that level 50 trophy (only at level 31 right now) and all the other skills require me to change up my character playstyle in order to level up properly.
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Re: What? No Skyrim thread?

Unread postby Nazne » Fri Nov 18, 2011 8:09 am

Mikhail wrote:Finally beat the main campaign missions. It was pretty good. Lots of dragons, obviously, and nothing is more fun than slaughtering dragons. The story of it was actually kind of cool, but the battles with Alduin were kind of a let down... I guess I was looking for something slightly more epic but it was pretty good nonetheless.

Another thing, in addition to the whole smithing thing and how it levels up with whatever you make, not the quality, it takes precisely 370 items created to get to level 100.

One thing I need to figure out though is if there are any other skills that I can level up in the same manner. I want to get that level 50 trophy (only at level 31 right now) and all the other skills require me to change up my character playstyle in order to level up properly.


I've been hearing that the main storyline doesn't *really* resolve satisfactorily from a lot of people now, and I'm a bit worried. Is it like Oblivion where "oh hey, main evil's gone but the world's still in shambles", or even worse, "Alduin runs away and threatens to come back someday to eat the world again?" Could you give a general spoiler-free idea of what sort of resolution it is?

Also, discovery: Weapon improvement doesn't depend *entirely* on perks. Essentially, I can still improve Daedric/Ebony/"heavy armor" material bows, just not as much as I would be able to if I had the perk. I also can't make the weapon myself, so I'd have to buy it or find it somewhere. This isn't really useful for me, of course - only improving WITH perks would get me the highest-level improved bow - but it's still good to know.
先主復領益州牧,諸葛亮為股肱,法正為謀主,關羽、張飛、馬超為爪牙,許靖、麋竺、簡雍為賓友。
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Re: What? No Skyrim thread?

Unread postby Mikhail » Fri Nov 18, 2011 11:50 am

Well, unlike in the Fallout games, the completion of the main quest doesn't mean the end of the game. What that means, of course, is that you can still undertake quests to further help rid the land of problems, but its never really gone. Bethesda said that there's an infinite number of dragons in this game so one can infer from that statement that dragons continually roam Skyrim even after the main quest is completed.

As for the World-Eater, he won't be coming back. That is all.
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Re: What? No Skyrim thread?

Unread postby Nazne » Sat Nov 19, 2011 8:37 am

Okay, I just need to rant for a bit.

Skyrim is great BUT WHERE IS THE CREATION KIT?!

There's an actual line of thought behind this. I have to date finished ~2 of Skyrim's main plot threads, and the one thing I'm starting to feel is that Skyrim is an exercise in loneliness. Quite a few of the characters the player grows to care about either reveal themselves to not be so likable or die, and everyone else's character development is roughly nonexistent, including characters the player might want to marry. Certainly, characters have distinct personalities - many more so than in Oblivion - but due to the limited things they can say, after a while the player starts to feel surrounded by people who don't really care about the player's exploits, choices, or identity, *especially* when characters don't develop further when their view of the player character should be changing.

One thing Oblivion had that I'm missing about Skyrim is, oddly enough, Martin Septim. Yes, he was a giant plot device; yes, he stole my thunder at the end of the game; yes, paying for Sean Bean and Patrick Stewart to voice act probably took all the money Bethesda had and led to the shoddy voice acting in Oblivion. But the fact that Martin was always at Cloud Ruler Temple for most of the game, always willing to chat with the player about his exploits, apparently maturing as someone about to become emperor, and in general unquestionably neutral good was - comforting. It was good to know that someone decent in Cyrodiil considered the player an equal and friend, instead of just as a superior (guildmaster), an inferior (everything before guildmaster), or a larger-than-life hero. The ending in Oblivion hit me kind of hard, for good reason. (So did the Dark Brotherhood questline. Gah.)

And to be honest - I can't help but feel that many characters in Oblivion were actually *more* developed than their counterparts in Skyrim. Skyrim's characters certainly have less completely unrelated voice options and are more coherent as characters, but perhaps as a result of that they don't feel as alive, as unexpected and interesting, as a real human being might. Their lack of a rumors option - which allows them to react to events that happen in the world as the player does them - makes it impossible to gauge their reactions to occurrences in the game world, and as a result they don't feel entirely realistic. For example: SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER

Dark Brotherhood
After the assassination of the Emperor, not a single person I talked to, save two guards in Solitude WHERE THE EMPEROR WAS MURDERED, had anything to say on the matter. No in-game backlash occurred against my character, no changes seemed to occur in the game world, no one REACTED. What was the entire plot of Oblivion was pretty much just ignored by most of Skyrim. Yes, perhaps *this* emperor actually had heirs and the Oblivion crisis wasn't about to reoccur, but one would think that such a calamitous event would be at least MENTIONED by the game, especially in a province where the Empire is pretty much at war. Instead, the DB questline ended. I was...disappointed.

Lack of reaction and change is my biggest problem with Skyrim's world, because while it is otherwise beautifully immersive, character interactions are *really* bland, to the point where I'm starting to support the Imperials over the Stormcloaks just because an imperial character called mine "friend" for doing a quest for him. I feel as if this shouldn't happen. That's basically why I want the Creation Kit, so I can mod some conversation topics into a character, create a new one with associated quests, make a Martin Septim dragon character - do whatever it would take to make *something* about Skyrim feel less lonely and more welcoming.
先主復領益州牧,諸葛亮為股肱,法正為謀主,關羽、張飛、馬超為爪牙,許靖、麋竺、簡雍為賓友。
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Re: What? No Skyrim thread?

Unread postby Bryan » Sat Nov 19, 2011 11:56 am

From what I've heard it's on its way, might just be a while.

As far as the character reaction and immersion, I really wish I could get into the games as much as that. The rumor options from before were just an extra layer of icing to me, recycled responses that got old after the third time hearing them. It's almost the same to me as the remarks about current events that the guards make in this game as you walk by or bump into them.

I will be honest though, usually at this point in an Elder Scrolls game, I've already bounced to another game to cure the boredom. That hasn't happened to me yet with Skyrim. Maybe it's actually talking to people about the game this time around, or maybe it's that I'm finally playing on a PC (with a gamepad). Either way, I'm still dragged up into it (and I haven't progressed the main plot that far either). I am really excited to see what people will put out with a Creation Kit. That was always something I'd missed out on playing with the console version. If the community can put together anything like the NWN community did, it would completely justify my purchase.
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