Destiny of an Emperor 2.0 (Version 1.1 Released!)

Discussion of other Three Kingdoms games (e.g. Destiny of an Emperor and Dynasty Tactics) and other games by Koei (e.g. Samurai Warriors).

Re: Destiny of an Emperor 2.0 (Version 1.1 Released!)

Unread postby James » Sun Jan 25, 2009 9:41 am

You comment on soldier count vs. variable level increases for a few of these officers. Another option is to keep a fixed soldier count but set the soldiers to a lower level (for example, a Lu Xun with around 18,000 soldiers instead of 24,000). Let me know if that influences any of your thoughts.

Tarrot wrote:Lu Kang: I'd make his troop levels variable. When you get him, he's a 222/217/Super high Agility general with 14,000 troops, and just seems a little too good at that stage.

I don't want to make too many 2xx/2xx officers available going through Wei, though it might be possible with Lu Kang. His strength isn't high enough to really push for the results needed from an offensive officer there and his intelligence isn't quite high enough to work incredible wonders. My goal, instead, was to make a good officer available through the end of Wu, the Sun Quan fight if needed, and early into Wei.

Tarrot wrote:Lu Su: He's ok, but I think he'd be better off with a static good amount of troops for his position.

Do you think it would be possible to use him with his fixed solider count? My general idea with Lu Su and a few others like him is to make a Wu-based Wei invasion force viable and fun. :)

Tarrot wrote:Zhang Zhao: Completely outclass by Fa Zheng (although he might be a style choice), I'd also go a static number of troops with him.

Same question and comment as above.

Tarrot wrote:Ding Feng: He'd be more useful to me if Lu Kang didn't have 14000 troops and overall better stats, hence why I'd say put Lu Kang on variable. [And Cheng Pu]

I guess it depends on what choice is made with Lu Kang.

Tarrot wrote:Gan Ning: I'd like to see him on variable so I have one more meathead outside Taishi Ci to do a Wu invasion of Wei, plus you already have Huang Gai for the powerful safely over 10,000 meathead for the region.

That's a pretty decent suggestion, and good for a Wu-themed party.

Tarrot wrote:Lu Xun: Jesus is he overpowered at the stage you get him. 24,000 troops, 215 strength, 240 Int, and a relatively high Agility ranking. I'd say drop him down variable (although with those stats he'd probably be ready for the Sima Yi battle right there), just because he overshadows so many people at that point.

I observed the same thing about him when I recruited him and entered Wei with my game during testing. I wasn't quite sure if I should give him a lower troop total or level progression. I don't like the idea of level progression because he's extremely powerful, and giving him progression up into the 30,000–40,000 range is pretty excessive. I'm not sure I like the idea of giving him a much weaker level progression as that would limit his use to some extent earlier on. Let me know if your feelings about him change as you go into Wei. He's very powerful, but Wei is quite dangerous, too. It might not be too excessive. We'll decide on something for him.

Tarrot wrote:Sun Quan/Lu Meng: Outside of the forced attempt where I had to retreat, I think the battle can be toned a little differently. My dilemma:

What you have is two generals, one with 34,000 troops, one with 24,000, with insane attack abilities, and real high defense abilities. An example: Zhao Yun with Qing Long (and under 10,000 troops) Zeal'd was doing 700 damage to Lu Xun per hit (same defense at 200). He's at 11,000 troops now, so he gets the last double multiplier, but with him, even with powerpills, he's doing at most 3,000 per hit to Quan or Meng. I'd have to load up Zhao Yun and Wang with power pills, have all their hits come when both are over 10,000 troops, and after 5 turns (6 counting zeal, assuming Quan or Meng doesn't Negate them), almost kill Sun Quan, maybe kill him if Huang Gai/Taishi Ci (whoever I use) and the rest of my guys are able to widdle Quan down theirselves. And that still leaves Meng. Assuming I don't load up on power pills (which generally, as a preference, I prefer not to), the fight will be impossible to do. What I'd propose in exchange:

The final battle is Sun Quan, Lu Meng, and the 3 other Sun's in the region. Quan and Meng at 180 Def, the other Suns at 160 (or whatever they were at previously). That's pretty much 100,000 troops you're squaring off against, all of whom are around 200/200 guys. It gives you a real choice for An Sha vs. Ce Mian (do I wanna An Sha the other Suns? What about when I widdle down Meng and Quan?), makes it in many ways more challenging (since now you're dealing with a lot of guys hitting you for 1500 without guard, and even if you throw up an evade that means you can't silence and stop Meng/Quan from reviving), and would keep the attacks high enough so you wouldn't have to pray for a revive to not come down.

You've got a pretty good idea when it comes to tossing in the other Sun generals and making it a much bigger fight, but to do this I'll probably have to take those officers from other locations in the game which isn't really viable. It is possible, as the Sun family members aren't recruitable, that I can re-assign existing Sun officers for a second appearance there without creating infinite recruitable Sun officers (see the Ji Ling glitch discovered earlier). I'll have to experiment with that.

The Sun Quan/Lu Meng battle could also be toned down, but when I played through I didn't really get the impression that was necessary. It is a tough battle, but as one of the game's biggest boss battles that's okay. It can be one of the battles you've got to fight through tooth and nail to win, even if that means stocking up on Power Pills. I do like your other suggestion, though... I wonder...

Tarrot wrote:I'm still on the fence about whether I'd like a drop for Ce Mian or not. It seems like a lot more enemy tacticians have Negate (including Quan and Meng), and now one Negate ruins you more than an An Sha or a Wan Fu ever did.

I have a feeling Wei is going to help you decide on that. :)
I don't think negate is quite as common there... but it does play a role.
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Re: Destiny of an Emperor 2.0 (Version 1.1 Released!)

Unread postby Tarrot » Mon Jan 26, 2009 7:15 am

Sun Quan/Lu Meng: With a powerpill blitz, I was able to take down Sun Quan faster than I thought (and Taishi Ci and Lu Xun were doing more damage than I anticipated), and Lu Meng went down quickly after that. Only real issue is I felt I was over-leveled (at 39) to beat the encounter, and I think my suggestion could be a funner encounter overall.

Jiang Wei: When he asks if Zhuge's there and he says yes, he says "I'mLu Xun of Wei" (Lu Xun is my party leader at the moment)

Another thing: This is something I've been noticing for a while, but wanted to wait till I got to Wei to comment on. I think the money curve completely dies off around Wu. I just went to Guang Ling, bought Steel Armors for everyone, have everyone decked out in the best equipment I can find, and I have 160,000 gold on me. I'll easily be able to afford helmets for everyone in Ru Nan. I'd say raise the prices a lot more relatively speaking towards the end of the game (like, the Great Axe cost.... 38,000 or something like that? The Dadao only got 65000 or so, the best buyable weapon in the game). Just, the feeling of having to watch your money doesn't really exist here.

Another question: I beat Zhang Liao at his fort, fought him in the field, but I didn't get a chance to recruit him? Is he supposed to be unrecruitable? Same for Pang De (although I haven't fought him in a Wei fort yet).

1st Cao Pi battle: Are you supposed to be caught off guard no matter what? I've reloaded 5 times and been caught off guard each time, and just gave up on fighting him normally.
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Re: Destiny of an Emperor 2.0 (Version 1.1 Released!)

Unread postby Xiahou Mao » Mon Jan 26, 2009 7:51 am

I believe Cao Pi has a quirk where he always catches you off-guard. That's true in the normal game too.

As for Zhang Liao and Pang De being unrecruitable, I assume James toggled the same flag on them that the Xiahous and Caos have, where you need to kill Cao Pi before you can pick them up. Whether that's intentional or not, I don't know..
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Re: Destiny of an Emperor 2.0 (Version 1.1 Released!)

Unread postby James » Mon Jan 26, 2009 8:21 am

Tarrot wrote:Jiang Wei: When he asks if Zhuge's there and he says yes, he says "I'mLu Xun of Wei" (Lu Xun is my party leader at the moment)

I'll have a look at that.

Tarrot wrote:Another thing: This is something I've been noticing for a while, but wanted to wait till I got to Wei to comment on. I think the money curve completely dies off around Wu. I just went to Guang Ling, bought Steel Armors for everyone, have everyone decked out in the best equipment I can find, and I have 160,000 gold on me. I'll easily be able to afford helmets for everyone in Ru Nan. I'd say raise the prices a lot more relatively speaking towards the end of the game (like, the Great Axe cost.... 38,000 or something like that? The Dadao only got 65000 or so, the best buyable weapon in the game). Just, the feeling of having to watch your money doesn't really exist here.

The 65000 or so is the highest price I can possibly make any item in the game, so there's no pricing the Dadao at around 120,000 or so. What I can do is ramp up costs leading to that point. On one hand it will seem strange for end-game items to be just a little more expensive from earlier items, but it would help to introduce financial concerns again. On the other hand, if you've done some power leveling you've probably got a pretty sturdy bankroll.

Tarrot wrote:Jiang Wei: When he asks if Zhuge's there and he says yes, he says "I'mLu Xun of Wei" (Lu Xun is my party leader at the moment)

I'll have a look at that.

Tarrot wrote:Another question: I beat Zhang Liao at his fort, fought him in the field, but I didn't get a chance to recruit him? Is he supposed to be unrecruitable? Same for Pang De (although I haven't fought him in a Wei fort yet).

You should be able to recruit him after Cao Pi dies. I thought you'd be able to recruit him earlier, but like many other Wei officers he may only be available after that point. I didn't actually do anything (knowingly) to change this one way or the other. My notes show Zhang Liao was recruitable after that battle in the original, which is a little odd.

Tarrot wrote:Jiang Wei: When he asks if Zhuge's there and he says yes, he says "I'mLu Xun of Wei" (Lu Xun is my party leader at the moment)

I'll have a look at that.

Tarrot wrote:1st Cao Pi battle: Are you supposed to be caught off guard no matter what? I've reloaded 5 times and been caught off guard each time, and just gave up on fighting him normally.

Cao Pi, as Xiahou Mao says, has always caught you off-guard, in every version of the game.
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Re: Destiny of an Emperor 2.0 (Version 1.1 Released!)

Unread postby Tarrot » Mon Jan 26, 2009 8:55 am

Cao Pi: Yeah, I kinda remembered it, just getting confirmation.

Zhang Liao and Pang De: Well, that would make a Wu themed party or Wu characters more useful.

Cao Pi battle 1: After having Cao Pi twice in one battle Revive from 14000 and 11000 troops (since I wanted to wait until he got to 10,000 to use Ce Mian; this is actually more annoying in some respects than the 18 soldier full heal Wan Fu), I gave up on fighting normally and Silenced and Power Pill Bombed Cao Pi to death (although for some reason, with the same defense, he was taking less damage than Sun Quan or Lu Meng were). Random thoughts:

1: Having a 170 int Cao Ren successfully negate against Lu Xun twice were both battle ruiners and made me want Ce Mian's cost lowered.

2: Being Torrented by Cao Ren (170), Xiahou Dun (200s), and Cao Pi Deluging me (230) wasn't a killer like in the Zhou Yu battle, but having Cao Ren and Xiahou Dun hit with relative regularity (I had multiple instances of Cao Ren connecting against all 5 members of my team; Wang and Taishi are excusable, but for a 170 int guy to hit against a 240, 230, and 225 int guy, multiple times, drove me up a wall, not to mention Dun) was rather annoying, although I think that battle's fine for what it is outside the annoyances. I'd personally drop Cao Ren's ability to cast tactics for that fight, but it's not necessary.

3: The contrary of having a 240 int Lu Xun miss with regularity against Xiahou Dun (200 int, I'd estimate under a 50% success rate) makes me never want to use a tactic again in Wei, considering the overwhelming number of generals with 180-200 Int in the region.

Previous Comments:

Lu Kang: In fairness, you got Zhao Yun, Lu Xun and whatever you do with him, and very early on in Wei Jiang Wei who are all 200/200 guys, plus Zhou Yu who while at 190, with nearly 240 Int. You also have Cheng Pu and Ding Feng, with worse stats, but still 200/200 and 4000 more troops. Plus, most of the Wei guys are 200/200 or close to anyways, so when you can recruit them, he won't really stand out as much. I was just thinking, for a Wu final battle scenario, he'd be a great guy to have in the final 5 man team.

Lu Su: Quite frankly, with his stats, I'd only take him into Wei if he had Lu Xun's troop count. He doesn't have high enough int to be of use with tactics (and after my Cao Pi experience with Lu Xun, I'm pretty much done with tactics in Wei), and his strength is rather poor for a end game general, where I'm at the point that the only way I'm taking someone under 200 strength is if they have a super high Int (ala, Zhou Yu, and he still has 190 strength). He could be nice for a novelty addition, but I'm not sure outside it.

Zhang Zhao: Too low of strength to be useful, his best use would be as a Wu tactician which could be done regardless of troop count. Even if you went with an An Sha group, having 10 - 15,000 men would be enough since that group's goal is to take heads fast. By the way, what happened to his portrait?

Lu Xun: Eh, 24,000 vs. 30-40,000 doesn't make much of a difference near the end game to me, since the danger really is in avoiding being An Sha'd (unless you have Revive), and by that time it'd be the end game and it'd lower his initial "I need to have him in my party" feeling.

Wu Themed Party: Right now, I figure you'd have Lu Xun, Zhou Yu, Taishi Ci as the definites, with I believe Lu Su and Zhang Zhao as the others who gain soldiers (although I think one of the other Wu generals gains soldiers as well, but I'm not sure who, I'll have to see who has 20k+ soldiers in a few levels to know this one). Ding Feng or Cheng Pu cause of their soldier counts could be subbed in. Then, for a tactician, you either have Zhang Zhao (Ce Mian) or Zhang Hong (An Sha).

I'd ideally go Lu Xun, Zhou Yu, Taishi Ci, Gan Ning, Lu Kang as your 5 (all gaining soldiers) with Zhao or Hong as the tactician.

Couple random questions:

1: If I use the DOAEditor on your game, could I see the stats of all the generals in the game? I wanna take a look at some of the Wu/Wei general's stats and see if there's a narrow region where Guard could be put in and remain in for the whole game (ie, like a 200 to 210 region or something like that)

2: Is there a way to change what level you learn tactics at in the game? (ie: Ambush when you get it isn't of much use because you'll only have one real general who'll be powerful enough and smart enough to make use of it in Xu Shu; if you could use one of the instant-retreat spells and sub that in for where Ambush is, and move the other spells down the line, might make things more fun with tacticial redistribution)

3: Will Chen Gong and/or Gao Shun be available for recruitment at any point in the game? Kinda like a Pang De situation where they show up early on with Lu Bu, then are free officers available for recruitment later on in Wei, even if they'd have been dead at that point. And speaking of that, is there a way to flag them as available for recruitment after they're defeated with Lu Bu (ala a castle defeat flag), or would you have to beat them in Wei in a castle to get them?

By the way, in your reply to my post, you said you'd look into it on Jiang Wei/Lu Xun 3 times for some reason. The price, I kinda figured when I saw the Dadao in the original at 65535 (which is... I want to say a short int in computing terms, not sure the exact number, but, I know its a max of a certain storage value)

And as a Zhang Liao speculation: Do you think that when you added him to Lu Bu's battle that you made it so he was unrecruitable in Wei? Like you put up a "Do not recruit" flag there which carried over to Wei? I'll see what happens after Cao Pi dies.
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Re: Destiny of an Emperor 2.0 (Version 1.1 Released!)

Unread postby Tarrot » Mon Jan 26, 2009 5:00 pm

Ok, figured I'd do some random tests on Deluge. 10 TP, using it with Lu Xun (240) vs. Cao Pi (230), Cao Zhang (168), Cao Zhi (225), and Pang De (200) to see how it goes.

1st try:
Failed against everyone except the Rebel Soldier.

2nd try:
Success against Cao Zhang and Cao Zhi, but Pang De beheaded him so I restarted the battle.

3rd try (Battle 2):
Success against Cao Zhang and Pang De

4th try:
Success against everyone but Cao Zhi

5th try:
Success against everyone but Cao Zhi

6th try:
Success against Cao Zhang and Pang De

7th try:
Success against everyone

8th try:
Success against everyone but Cao Zhi, killed Cao Zhang

9th try (out of TP at this point, even to heal or Thwart):
HIt only Cao Zhi, they threw up an evade as of course my Thwart lasted only one round so I reset the battle.

10th try (Battle 3):
Success against Pi and Zhang

11th try:
Success against Cao Zhang

12th try:
Success against Zhi and Zhang

13th try:
Success against everyone

14th try:
Success against Pi and Zhang

15th try:
Success against Pi and Zhang, kill Zhang

16th try:
Success against Pi and De, kill Cao Pi, out of TP

Quickly tabulated results on success in those battles:

Cao Pi: 9/16
Cao Zhang: 13/14
Cao Zhi: 5/16
Pang De: 8/16

Cao Pi I was surprised at, but still, even doing about 5k/pop Zeal'd, Lu Xun was hitting a guy 40 int less than him half the time. As far as I know (seeing all the Wei generals who I assume are with Sima Yi, like Cheng Yu and Guo Jia and Dian Wei and Zhong Hui), most of the end-game fights are going to be against guys in the 220s+ in terms of intelligence. While Deluge is an insanely powerful tactic, I can't see spot-using it, nor using it with anyone whose int is under 240 because even at 10 TP the cost is still a little too much for it to be viable. That, plus the enemies get the tactic, plus when you get to the real dangerous guys (Cheng Yu and Guo Jia and Sima Yi I think with Zeal), you're having the enemy with infinite TP bombing away for 5k/hit theirselves.

Random thing: Guan Suo saves us from Sima Yi. I put him in the part to talk to him to hopefully cause the universe to implode. It didn't happen sadly.
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Re: Destiny of an Emperor 2.0 (Version 1.1 Released!)

Unread postby James » Mon Jan 26, 2009 8:08 pm

Random observations:

I'm working on the Cao Cao version right now and the Yan Yan battle is the same. Neither Yan Yan nor Fa Zheng know Negate. Fa Zheng's tactics are much more powerful (Evade, Revive and the like) while Yan Yan just don't have 'nuff smarts for it. Dong He's got Negate. Does that sound familiar?

Zhang Liao just died and I resurrected him. He's taking his turn properly. Will continue watching for this while testing both versions of the game.
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Re: Destiny of an Emperor 2.0 (Version 1.1 Released!)

Unread postby Tarrot » Mon Jan 26, 2009 9:23 pm

Did the Jia Chong.... I'm sorry, the first Sima Yi battle. I could care less about Sima Yi's 61k troops, but Jia Chong seemed to have it program in to evade evade evade. Every single time it was down he'd throw it up and I'd miss out on half my turn. I really hope the later fights aren't this annoying with being Evaded and Thwarted each turn. I eventually got him down, then saved in the middle of the battle cause I did not want to go through that again (and with only 1 PP from Zhao Yun and Wang to boot). Sima, burned him slowly, thwarted him at about 25k hp (and I was scared when I saw him Revive, only to go to a random rebel), then began PP bombing with ZY and Wang, and thankfully was able to take him out after my second thwart in a row went out after 1 turn due to Sima Deluging instead of Reviving himself.

Random thoughts: Thinking more, I think that the Inferno/Deluge tactics should become like Miracle in that they're low cost and spammable (ie: 5 and 6 TP a piece). The reason: If the upcoming fights are anything, I can imagine I'm going against many 220+ Int generals, with a few 240-250 Int guys thrown in for good measure. I'm personally hoping Deng Ai isn't put in the final fight because I've been having some fun ideas for random final boss groupings.

Group What Chapter are We In?
Zhang Liao
Xu Shu
Zhang He
Jia Xu
Pang De
Strategist: No one that I can think of, I can put someone at Jia Xu's level and put Jia Xu at the bottom to make him seem like a strategist.

Group Everyone Forgets About Us:
Jiang Wei
Deng Ai
Yang Hu
Chen Tai
Du Yu
Strategist: Not sure yet again, I'm sure there's someone in there I'm forgetting about who could fill the role.

Group Related to Cao Ghost
Xiahou Dun
Xiahou Yuan
Xiahou Dun
Cao Zhang
*insert 5th Cao kid here*
Strategist: Cao Zhi

I already mentioned Group "This Victory belongs to WUuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu!" above, and the Tigers are self-explanatory. I wonder if I could beat this with Team Starters (The Songs, the Chens, Jian Yong, Huo Hu, and Liao Hua, with one of the Chens or Hua Hu as a strategist) or Team NERD (anyone whose Strength is under 100) or Team Muscle (anyone whose Int is under 100).
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Re: Destiny of an Emperor 2.0 (Version 1.1 Released!)

Unread postby James » Mon Jan 26, 2009 10:14 pm

Jia Chong being a jerk and your bad luck with offensive tactics are pretty much just bad luck and chance. I've generally had pretty decent luck with offensive tactics going through Wei (less so in DoaE 2.0 due to the higher intelligence levels) but it has been worth it at least to some small extent thanks to tactics still doing full damage while physical attacks are weaker than they were in the original. Still, because tactics like Thwart are so vital in Wei offensive tactics have always taken a back seat, even while playing the original. That was the original reason why I reduced the cost of Huo Shen and Shui Long—to make them viable for some use in Wei.

I do generally like your idea of making them a little more practical in Wei. The TP cost of using them even at a further reduced value is sill relevant when a battle can come down to whether you pull off that final Thwart or not but it would surely be much more fun to abuse those tactics a little more going through the final stretches of the game. It would also take a little bit of the edge off some of those Wei battles without imbalancing things. I'll be thinking about that.

Making some of those Wu officers levelable even if they wouldn't normally be useful does sound like a decent idea. I'll have another look at them to sort that stuff out. Speaking of Wu officers, are you still thinking Lu Xun should be changed? I'm still not sure about making another high-soldier count officer available with really high troop totals for the final Wei battles. He still is fairly viable at 24,000 soldiers, though...

I might reduce Ce Mian back to its original level. The addition of negate and the slightly reduced TP available due to losing a few tactics might warrant at least that change.

If you load DoaE 2.0 in DoaEditor you will be able to see all of the officers new stats.

I'm sure there's a way to change the level at which a tactic is learned, but we don't know how to do that just yet. I suppose with some fumbling we might come across the information, though. Niahak would probably be able to find it quickly. That could, though, open up the doors for some really quirky stuff.

Chen Gong and Gao Shun are considered dead after the battle against Lu Bu.
It is possible to make a few officers available in the way Pang De became available, but that's it. We never were able to figure out the recruitment flag. It would be great to do so, though, along with the An Sha flag.

I'm not sure what happened to Zhang Liao—not in the slightest. Let me know if he became properly recruitable after Cao Pi's death. I've been able to recruit him in all of my own DoaE 2.0 adventures without a problem. I'm not sure how I could have tripped any flags because I'm not sure what flags actually govern those things.

The universe doesn't implode when Wang growls at Wang either. :lol:

Deng Ai appears with Xun Yu at Jin castle. You can recruit him before you face Sima Yi for the final time, so those odd group ideas of yours should be possible. I don't know about Du Yu, though. I seem to recall him being allied with Sima Yi for the final battle of the game. :)
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Re: Destiny of an Emperor 2.0 (Version 1.1 Released!)

Unread postby Tarrot » Tue Jan 27, 2009 6:59 am

Random question: What is the max level for your party? I'm at 47 right now, I'll most likely hit 48 just before I hit 999,999 exp, so unless you're going over that cap for exp for the next couple of levels, or you do something like 1 exp for 49 and 50, I'll be left with 49 as a max level. Considering Taishi Ci is my top HP guy at the moment with just over 30k, having Lu Xun be variable wouldn't really be game breaking in this instance.

Ce Mian actually I thought was at its original level TP wise (or a minor increase).

On tactics: The only battles I've seen so far where the use of the Fire/Water tactics would've been of great use were the two Cao Pi battles, which thier use would've made a little more interesting and a little easier. I think, especially with Sima Yi's 60k guys, that its not that useful when you run into Sima with Jia Chong or whoever he has for his second battle (I forget the tactician off hand), since you want the rebels there to eat a revive if he casts one earlier than you anticipate before the big burn phase.

Zhang Liao: Finally picked him up in a random battle. I also picked up Hao Zhao and Hua Xin (who I swear I didn't fight in Wei, though I may have forgot about them in either gate battles or a random general under one of the Xiahou's) after Cao Pi's death.

Other random thoughts:

If you could change items completely and/or add items in, having new items (like a Resurrect B or C or something), or super-powered items (like an Elixir E that costs 15,000 gold and restores 10k soldiers) could be a nice money sink for some battles.

Also, a shock to me, but I ran out of food going through the game. This is the first time that's happened to me since I played the original. I proceeded to spend 200k gold on food so I should be good through the rest of the game.
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