Zhao Yun, Dian Wei or Zhou Tai-bravest of the brave

[Morg]

Now for anyone who wants proof that Zhao didnt suffer any injuries at Chang Ban here it is. Zhao Yun would have died if he got injured. He was a hemophiliac, which means his blood would not clot if he got cut so he would eventually die from blood loss if he got an injury, unless it was a very very small injury. This is actually true though i dont know if the part about him dying from a needle prick is true though.

The story of Zhao Yun being a haemophiliac is a folk tale that is of dubious origins as it appears in no historical source. As it appears in no historical source, you cannot use it as proof. While it could be true, you would have to assume that the man received no injury whatsoever in his 70+ years and for a warrior that is impossible. It's one of those nice endings for a character who didn't otherwise have one like Guan Yu (ghostly assasination of Lu Meng), Diao Chan (killed or saved by Guan Yu depending on source) and Huang Zhong (died of old age before Yi Ling).

[LiuChan]

in SGZ, it says that Zhao Yun PROTECTED Lady Gan. Protected from what? mosquitos? of course not. protected from enemies. why would it say 'protected' if zhao yun didnt fight anyone.

[Zhilong]

Considering everyone had to flee to the other side of the Changban bridge for safety, i wonder how Zhao Yun can waltz about and not meet a single soldier. Was he invisible or were they blind?

[Sam]

You are quite right there is no English version of SGZ. I dont see the point your making.

I think the point I am making is quite obvious. You claimed that by referring us to the book, you meant SGZ, not SGYY. Because there is no English book on SGZ, that is impossible.

Also insinuation does not mean that that he did fight, he could have just scared off some enemy soldiers.

Insinuation shows that it is more likely.

And courage isnt saying you will do something, it is when you actually perform the act that you are truly courageous.

What the hell do you think Zhao Yun did? Say he was going to save Liu Shan, but instead stayed back and played hopscotch with some soldiers? He did risk facing thousands of enemy soldiers by doing what he did, and that is extremely courageous. I'm getting sick and tired of you avoiding my points.

The SGZ biography never says that he actually fought, insinuations are just that, you can take them whichever way you wish to. If you had to answer, yes or no, did the SGZ bio actually say that he fought what would your answer be. And if he protected her then why did she die?

It is more likely that he did fight. And she didn't die - Lady Mi did.

The basis of the act is brave. It would have taken tremendous courage to perform the act as its portrayed in SGYY, but the act never happened in SGZ which probably means that it never happened in real life. But if you want to debate this, then in that case it is an insinuation.

Historically, what he did do took tremendous courage, and I have proven that with various points, yet you completely ignore what I am saying to you, avoiding my arguments and repeating your own. The way you are debating is extremely childish, and unless you begin to debate properly, which I can’t see happening, I don’t see the point in continuing this debate with you.

[Morg]

in SGZ, it says that Zhao Yun PROTECTED Lady Gan. Protected from what? mosquitos?

That would have been unbelievably cool

On a side note, what happened to Lady Gan historically? SGYY has her throwing herself down a well or something, but SGZ doesn't seem to mention if she survived Changban. Any ideas anyone?

[Sam]

On a side note, what happened to Lady Gan historically? SGYY has her throwing herself down a well or something, but SGZ doesn't seem to mention if she survived Changban. Any ideas anyone?

SGYY has Lady Mi thrown down a well, not Lady Gan. Lady Gan was Liu Bei's first wife, and I believe she died of illness when Liu Bei had first occupied Jing.

[Morg]

SGYY has Lady Mi thrown down a well, not Lady Gan. Lady Gan was Liu Bei's first wife, and I believe she died of illness when Liu Bei had first occupied Jing.

Excellent, it makes sense now thanks . Was Lady Mi fictional or did she die at Changban? Spot the guy who hasn't read anything about Changban yet....

[Sam]

Excellent, it makes sense now thanks . Was Lady Mi fictional or did she die at Changban? Spot the guy who hasn't read anything about Changban yet....

She wasn't fictional. Lady Mi was Mi Zhu and Mi Fang's sister, and I believe she did indeed die at Chang Ban, just as the novel states. You may want to ask the likes of Great Deer or Cai Yan for confirmation of that though.

[Morg]

She wasn't fictional. Lady Mi was Mi Zhu and Mi Fang's sister, and I believe she did indeed die at Chang Ban, just as the novel states. You may want to ask the likes of Great Deer or Cai Yan for confirmation of that though.

Nah the info you've given me is absolutely fine for me, thank you very much

[jiuwan]

I haven't read throught the whole thread yet. I'm only here because someone asked me to jump in and then I'm gonna disappear again.

With regards to Dian Wei's bio on 3k, the reason it is a rough draft is because:

1) I'm not a professional translator.

A professional translator has to take two years for his/her certificate. After that must complet another two years for his/her diploma/degree. Followed by another two years of post diploma. And then a bachelor's degree for another two years. Then continue on with a master's degree (2more yrs.). And then finally a doctorate degree. Which can take up to 12 yrs. for all degrees. And how much do they make? They make *insert your own profanity, the worse the better* peanuts compared to other fields. They average about $30,000/yr (CDN currency), while an average secretary makes more than that with less schooling. Otherwise I would have gone into this field for a career.

2) Professional translators have teams to back them up.

Such as an editing team. They usually work in companies where there are other translators to PROOFREAD & EDIT their work numerous times before the final draft is done. This process is usually done about ten times. Edit, redo, edit, redo etc.. until a final version is acceptable. Also there is a team or someone with an english degree to correct spelling, proper grammer, proper english structure & word usage etc..

All of this is very time consuming, but perfection is a standard they have to work with. I'm just one person. I can't do everything. As long as it's legitable for the reader to read then it is ok. I don't need the perfection.

3) Time constraints.

Professional translators work normal hours where all day they just translate. That is their job.

I'm still a post-secondary (college/university) student also working to support myself. My priorities are on school and supporting myself. Not the translation.

4) Professional translator get paid for their work.

I don't get paid a penny, I'm doing this out of my own free time.

--------------------------------

Now as for the accuracy...

There are NO translations out there that are 100% accurate and true to the original. That is impossible going from language to language.

A problem that will plague translators is the structure difference between languages. In the Chinese version of SGZ, there are sentences that are so long that when translated to English it can be divided up into multiple paragrahs. And then there are some Chinese sentences which are only two words long. When translated into English other words must be filled in by the translator to make the sentence complete so that it is understandable. Each translator will have their own preference on how to structure the English translation. This will deviate from the original language. But the translator will keep it true to the original language as possible best to their ability.

So if the translation isn't good enough, there is always the original Chinese text.

Here it is for <a href = "http://members.shaw.ca/jiuwan2/Scroll18c.htm" target = "blank">Dian Wei's Chinese SGZ bio </a>

And if you can't read Chinese, then you'll have to rely on the various translators. We do not set out to change the bio itself, we just merely translate what is in the original text. The only way you can get it accurately is to read the original SGZ chinese text yourself. That is the book that should be read (when able to do so), not SGYY for the historical facts.

If you prefer the SGYY over SGZ, that is your perogative. But please be able to distinguish the difference between the two. SGYY is the novel which is based on SGZ. In the novel it is approximately 7 parts historical facts and 3 parts fiction, used to dramatize and move the story along. This is what attracts the audience to read the book. SGZ is the historical records and reads like a regular history book (be it chronological or not).

Do not pick pieces of both and then say it's history because it suits your purposes in a debate. Just because in the SGZ bio of Dian Wei somethings are missing does not mean it is not correct and one should go to SGYY instead. Either stick with the historical facts or the SGYY facts in a debate.

As for the comprehensive bios found on KMA, those are not the actual SGZ bios. They contain both SGZ facts, SGYY stories, folk tales, legends etc that the compiler put together. Just because they include other info that SGZ misses, does not make them historical unless there is other historical records to back it up, eg Jin Shu, Hou Han Shu, ZZTJ etc..
---------------------------

Here's a summary of what happened at Chang Ban based on various SGZ bios:

[201AD]
-Liu Bei comes to Jing with Empress Gan
-Liu Bei adopts Liu Feng

[206AD]
-Empress Gan gives birth to Liu Shan

[208]
-Liu Bei is stationed at Fan; Liu Zong is in Xiang Yang; Cao Cao was in Ye; Lu Su was in Chai Sang

[August 208AD]
-Cao Cao heads south to attack Liu Biao

[September 208AD]
-Liu Biao dies, Liu Zong assumes his father's position
-In Chai Sang, Lu Su requested permission to offer condolensces to the two sons of Liu Biao and to also observe the changing situation
-Liu Zong hears Cao Cao is going to invade; dispatches a messanger to surrender
-Cao Cao reaches Wan; Liu Bei leaves Fan & leads his followers south
-Passing through Xiang Yang, Zhuge Liang proposes to Liu Bei to attack Liu Zong. Liu Bei refuses. The people of Xiang Yang abandoned Liu Zong and follow Liu Bei. They numbered over one hundred thousand. Liu Bei was walking at a pace of about 5km/day
-Lu Su arrives at Xia Kou, hears Cao Cao was already on his way quickens his pace

[October 208AD]
-Cao Cao arrived at Xin Ye (his army arrives in Xiang Yang according to Liu Biao's bio), Liu Zong surrenders
-Lu Su reaches Nan Jun, Liu Zong had already surrendered
-With the people slowing Liu Bei down, a proposal was made to abandon them, Liu Bei refuses
-Guan Yu seperates from Liu Bei, leaves by boat
-Cao Cao realizes the importance of Jiang Liang; arrives at Xiang Yang with the light troops; hearing that Liu Bei had already passed he quickly pursues with 5000 elite cavalry. In one day, one night they caught up to Liu Bei at Chang Ban, Dang Yang
-Liu Bei abandoned his wives and Liu Shan. Along with Zhuge Liang, Zhang Fei, Zhao Yun they fled with several tens of cavalry.
-Cao Cao captured Liu Bei's baggage train, and dispersed troops
-Xu Shu who was with Zhuge Liang following Liu Bei at the time, his mother was among those captured by Cao Cao, Xu Shu then bids farewell to Liu Bei and heads north to Cao Cao
-Zhao Yun turns around and escorts Liu Shan and Empress Gan safely away
-Lu Su meets up with Liu Bei, the alliance is between Liu-Sun is born
-Zhang Fei was tasked to guard the rear with twenty cavalry. He burned the bridge and held off Cao Cao's 5000 elite cavalry with a shout. None dared to advanced further; thus further danger avoided.
-Liu Bei meets up with Guan Yu and Liu Qi at Jiang Ling
-Liu Bei & company along with Lu head to Xia Kou
-Cao Cao advances to Jiang Ling, received it's surrender

[around January 209AD]
-Battle of Chi Bi

So for the number that was debating on how many troops Zhao Yun faced. The answer is there was 5,000 elite cavalrymen, of which was made up of Cao Chun's Leopard Tiger Cavlry, the best All under Heaven in its time.

Now there is no direct evidence recorded that proves Zhao Yun actually battled with them; and there is also no direct evidence recorded to show that he didn't battle them. But nevertheless there is direct evidence that shows he protected Liu Shan and Lady Gan from danger. And what is the danger? Cao Cao's 5,000 troops consisting of Cao Chun's elite Leopard Tiger Cavalry.

Also I would like to point out that Liu Bei was fleeing with Zhuge Liang, Zhang Fei and Zhao Yun. The people that followed him, along with Liu Shan and Lady Gan were left behind. Zhao Yun had to go back for them, which is beyond duty. He was not required to go back for them, but he did.
-------------------

On a side note, what happened to Lady Gan historically?

After she was saved by Zhao Yun, she died some time after the Chang Ban incident. SGZ did not state the exact time of her death. All it stated was that after the Chang Ban incident was that she died and was buried at Nan jun. So she died somewhere between after Chang Ban and before Liu Bei married Lady Sun (Sun Quan's sister).

Lady Gan was Liu Bei's first wife, and I believe she died of illness when Liu Bei had first occupied Jing.

I believe Lady Mi was the first wife and Lady Gan was the second. In Lady Gan's SGZ bio, it was stated because Liu Bei was constantly bereaved of his primary wife, he took Lady Gan as a concubine at the time. And I can only think of Lady Mi.

She wasn't fictional. Lady Mi was Mi Zhu and Mi Fang's sister, and I believe she did indeed die at Chang Ban, just as the novel states.

True that she was Mi Zhu and Mi Fang's younger sister. But not sure about the part she died at Chang Ban. Not much is written about Lady Mi besides her marrying Liu Bei in Mi Zhu's bio and getting captured. I couldn't find any additional info on her. But we do know that she died before Liu Bei married Lady Sun.

*phew* Time to disappear again....