Zhao Yun, Dian Wei or Zhou Tai-bravest of the brave

Best threads of the SGYYS, for your viewing pleasure.

Whose the bravest?

Zhao Yun
98
46%
Zhou Tai
38
18%
Dian Wei
79
37%
 
Total votes : 215

Unread postby Separation Anxiety » Wed Oct 15, 2003 4:35 am

Jiang Zhi wrote:
Dian Wei has:

- Protected Cao Cao at Wan Castle and only done that...if he is so powerful, why didn't Cao Cao use him as a duelist against Wen Chou or Yan Liang? (he was serving him at that time, wasn't he?)


Cao Cao only used one of his famous generals and that was Xu Huang. He had Xu Zhu, Zhang Liao, Yue Jin, Yu jin, Xiahou Yuan and Xiahou Dun, who were also great duelists in their own rights, but he simply didnt use them.

Dian Wei didnt only compete in one battle. He was in each of Caos battles against Lu Bu prior to Zhang Xius ambush. He did in fact save Caos life on more than one occasion and the three kingdoms website does not have every single fact that the book does. In fact they say that Dian had his two halberds which is wrong, and its stated in this biography on kongming.net "In the second year of Rebuilt Tranquility (AD 197), Lord Cao stayed in Wan castle, consorting with the wife of the late Zhang Ji, Lady Zhou. Zhang Xiu was enraged and together with Jia Xu he plotted to kill Lord Cao. However, because they feared Dian Wei’s strength, they weakened him with wine, stole his halberds, and night raided Lord Cao’s camp."

http://kongming.net/novel/kma/dianwei.php this is the link to the biography
http://kongming.net/novel/sgyy/dianwei.php
the second is his SGYY bio and it states other info that isnt in the first.

You were right that the arrows didnt kill him, but they did have an effect on him because the arrows were said to have fallen as thick as rain, but he finally died when soldiers snuck up on him and felled him with spear thrusts.

and in Zhao Yun SGZ bio at http://kongming.net/novel/sgz/zhaoyun.php
it never once said he was involved in fighting at Changban. It simply said that he returned with Liu Beis son

Also Dian weis bio at 3kingdoms is a rough draft. Read the book to get the real facts not a rough draft.
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Unread postby Lady Zhuge » Wed Oct 15, 2003 5:02 am

Dian_Wei wrote:Also Dian weis bio at 3kingdoms is a rough draft. Read the book to get the real facts not a rough draft.


No, the book is not considered a reliable source for the "real facts". It is unfair for you to use information cited from the comprehensive bio of Dian Wei(based on SGYY) and compare it to the information from the SGZ(historical) bio of Zhao Yun. Either use SGZ as the source for both, or SGYY as the source for both, not the favorable one for the guy you're biased for and the less favorable one for the guy you don't particularly like.
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Unread postby Morg » Wed Oct 15, 2003 11:15 am

Dian_Wei wrote: the three kingdoms website does not have every single fact that the book does. In fact they say that Dian had his two halberds which is wrong, and its stated in this biography on kongming.net "In the second year of Rebuilt Tranquility (AD 197), Lord Cao stayed in Wan castle, consorting with the wife of the late Zhang Ji, Lady Zhou. Zhang Xiu was enraged and together with Jia Xu he plotted to kill Lord Cao. However, because they feared Dian Wei’s strength, they weakened him with wine, stole his halberds, and night raided Lord Cao’s camp."

http://kongming.net/novel/kma/dianwei.php this is the link to the biography
http://kongming.net/novel/sgyy/dianwei.php
the second is his SGYY bio and it states other info that isnt in the first.

You were right that the arrows didnt kill him, but they did have an effect on him because the arrows were said to have fallen as thick as rain, but he finally died when soldiers snuck up on him and felled him with spear thrusts.

and in Zhao Yun SGZ bio at http://kongming.net/novel/sgz/zhaoyun.php
it never once said he was involved in fighting at Changban. It simply said that he returned with Liu Beis son

Also Dian weis bio at 3kingdoms is a rough draft. Read the book to get the real facts not a rough draft.


I have quoted virtually all of your post as it needs addressing as a whole. You have used the terms SGZ and SGYY in this arguement and I think a little clarification may be needed here:

SGZ (San Guo Zhi) is China's official record of the events of the Three Kingdoms Period. It was written shortly after the Three Kingdoms period to record what had happened during that time, it consists of facts and is a historical record. It is not in chronological order (like a story) but is a collection of biographies of the officers and lords.

SGYY (San Guo Yan Yi) AKA Romance of the Three Kingdoms was written in 1600 (or thereabouts) and is a novel based on the SGZ. The author (Luo Guanzhong) took facts and embellished them, he added in folktales, myths and opera stories and invented some people and events completely (Lu Bu vs Three Brothers). His aim was to write a compelling story based on the Generals and Lords of the Three Kingdoms Period and he succeded.

There is a history of the books on Kongming.net http://kongming.net/novel/intro/

Therefore when you are telling me that the SGZ bio is incomplete and I should read SGYY to get the full story, what you are telling me is that I shouldn't quote what historically happened (like you doing with Zhao Yun) but that I should instead read all of the fantasy elements that were added to Dian Wei's death to make it seem more dramatic. The 2 links you have posted are links to SGYY based biographies (one of them even has SGYY in the link) and are therefore part fiction. The link I posted is to Dian Wei's historical biography which contains no fiction. Yes it is a rough draft but that is due to it being a literal translation which needs the grammer tweaking to make it read a little better in English. Therefore, I agree that the bio I linked to is missing events, but the events it is missing are ones that are complete fiction and were added 1,200+ years after Dian Wei's death.

Now can you see what Limitless Trust was saying about using comparitive sources? If you want to say that Zhao Yun's SGYY adventure into Wei territory at Changban was BS because historically there are very few details about it, then that is fine. However, you cannot use the SGYY account of Dian Wei's death to define his actions as more heroic because you are not comparing like with like. For the sake of fairness, both accounts need to be either SGZ or SGYY to be comparable.
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Unread postby Shadowlink » Wed Oct 15, 2003 1:44 pm

Zhao yun Duel Zhang He in ChangBan, Duel Wen Chou when saving Gongsun Zan, Duel Jiang Wei once, killed Qu Yi, Gao Lan, Zhang Wu, Lu Kuang, Chunyu Dao, Yan Ming, Xing Daorong, Xiahou En, Zhu Ran. Cao cao soldiers was afriad of him and did not fight Zhao Yun so Zhao Yun save Huang zhong. Zhao Yun killed alot of people during his lifetime also. other Wei generals did more than Dian Wei like Yu jin and Li dian. So what Dian WEi Capture Guo Si and the other guy that serve Dong ZHou. he capture a couple of Moutian thiefs.
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Unread postby LiuChan » Wed Oct 15, 2003 8:58 pm

Novel: Zhao Yun

History: Dian Wei

based on this SGZ translation on Dian Wei:

Afterwards [Dian Wei] served under Xiahou Dun. Due to his numerous merits in battle, Dian Wei was promoted to a major (si ma). The High Ancestor [Cao Cao] attacked Lu Bu at Pu Yang. To the west of Pu Yang, Lu Bu had various camps stationed fourty to fifty li's away. [Cao Cao] used a night raid and broke through the lines. Soon afterwards, [Lu] Bu's reinforcements arrived and engaged in a three pronged attack. At the time, [Lu] Bu personally joined the battle. The battle lasted from dawn until day and the situation became quite desperate. ‘¾‘c•å蜒 , èèæè , around ten personnel were equipped with heavy armor, Šü| , ’AŽ’·–µœŒ . At this time, now the west flank was in trouble. [Dian] Wei went forth to help, the arrows rained down like the rain. He didn't take notice, instead he told the troops: "Tell me when they are ten paces away" The troops then cried: "Ten paces!" Again [Dian Wei] instructed: "Tell me when it's five paces" The troops were fearful and cried: "They're here!" In his hands, [Dian] Wei held onto over ten halberds, deeply exhaling he rose against those troops knocking them down. [Lu] Bu's army retreated. That evening, [Cao Cao] withdrew his troops away. [Dian] Wei was then promoted as Chief Commandant (du wei), always by Cao Cao's side, with personal guards numbering several hundreds, protecting [Cao Cao] in the army.
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Unread postby Separation Anxiety » Wed Oct 15, 2003 9:40 pm

Actually when i tell you to read the book i am referring to San Guo Zhi not San Guo Yan Yi. I am also comparing two of Dian Weis biographies, one of which is SGYY. The other is a comprehensive biography that contains all the the stuff written about him in SGZ and more that was missed, but is nevertheless all true. Now on to the people that voted Zhao Yun. If you read his SGZ biography it does not say one thing about him fighting, now does it??? It does say however that he did rescue Liu Beis son though, but you were all saying wheres my proof he didnt fight, well he may have been in the battle of ChangBan but it never said one thing about him fighting through any Wei forces to rescue Liu Chan. But it seems that people want to hear what they want to hear and ignore that i put Zhao Yuns SGZ biography on here for a point and that is that it doesnt say if he actually fought anyone to save chan.
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Unread postby Lady Zhuge » Wed Oct 15, 2003 9:55 pm

Dian_Wei wrote:Actually when i tell you to read the book i am referring to San Guo Zhi not San Guo Yan Yi. I am also comparing two of Dian Weis biographies, one of which is SGYY. The other is a comprehensive biography that contains all the the stuff written about him in SGZ and more that was missed, but is nevertheless all true.


No, the comprehensive biography is based on SGYY; it is in no way a biography that contains all the information that just happened to be missed from SGZ.
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Unread postby Sam » Wed Oct 15, 2003 9:55 pm

Dian_Wei wrote:Actually when i tell you to read the book i am referring to San Guo Zhi not San Guo Yan Yi.


:lol: The book is SGYY. There is no English book on SGZ.

Dian_Wei wrote:I am also comparing two of Dian Weis biographies, one of which is SGYY. The other is a comprehensive biography that contains all the the stuff written about him in SGZ and more that was missed, but is nevertheless all true.


You cannot argue Dian Wei's talent by using both SGYY and SGZ - choose one and argue your point. The COS bio's have information taken from SGZ, SGYY, and several other sources. They do have factual information in them, but not all of the information is factual. The information in SGYY or any sources others than SGZ is not factual; it isn't information missing from SGZ.

Dian_Wei wrote: Now on to the people that voted Zhao Yun. If you read his SGZ biography it does not say one thing about him fighting, now does it??? It does say however that he did rescue Liu Beis son though, but you were all saying wheres my proof he didnt fight, well he may have been in the battle of ChangBan but it never said one thing about him fighting through any Wei forces to rescue Liu Chan. But it seems that people want to hear what they want to hear and ignore that i put Zhao Yuns SGZ biography on here for a point and that is that it doesnt say if he actually fought anyone to save chan.


Firstly, I have already explained that if Zhao Yun didn't fight, that didn't prove his not being brave - his courage was proven prior to his saving Liu Shan. Secondly:

Zhao Yun's SGZ biography wrote:Zhao Yun carried the young child, who was Liu Shan and also protected Lady Gan, the mother of Liu Shan, hence all of them were able to escape the dangers.


Notice how it says Zhao Yun protected Lady Gan? Now, if Zhao Yun did indeed protect Lady Gan, as his SGZ bio states, then he must have protected her from enemy forces. That obvious insinuates he did indeed fight.
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Unread postby Morg » Wed Oct 15, 2003 10:43 pm

Dian_Wei wrote:Actually when i tell you to read the book i am referring to San Guo Zhi not San Guo Yan Yi.

I have read parts of it and I have read Dian Wei's bio which I have told you about several times and have posted for you.


I am also comparing two of Dian Weis biographies, one of which is SGYY. The other is a comprehensive biography that contains all the the stuff written about him in SGZ and more that was missed, but is nevertheless all true.

No it is not. You have been told at least 4 times now that the Comprehensive Officer Record includes SGYY and therefore is not fact. It is a Comprehensive record in that it combines all information available about each general whether it is fact or fiction. If you had read my last post you would see that I had said "The 2 links you have posted are links to SGYY based biographies (one of them even has SGYY in the link) and are therefore part fiction.".

But it seems that people want to hear what they want to hear and ignore that i put Zhao Yuns SGZ biography on here for a point and that is that it doesnt say if he actually fought anyone to save chan.

That sounds like someone I can think of....
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Unread postby Separation Anxiety » Wed Oct 15, 2003 10:50 pm

Limitless Trust wrote:
Dian_Wei wrote:Actually when i tell you to read the book i am referring to San Guo Zhi not San Guo Yan Yi.


:lol: The book is SGYY. There is no English book on SGZ.

Dian_Wei wrote:I am also comparing two of Dian Weis biographies, one of which is SGYY. The other is a comprehensive biography that contains all the the stuff written about him in SGZ and more that was missed, but is nevertheless all true.


You cannot argue Dian Wei's talent by using both SGYY and SGZ - choose one and argue your point. The COS bio's have information taken from SGZ, SGYY, and several other sources. They do have factual information in them, but not all of the information is factual. The information in SGYY or any sources others than SGZ is not factual; it isn't information missing from SGZ.

Dian_Wei wrote: Now on to the people that voted Zhao Yun. If you read his SGZ biography it does not say one thing about him fighting, now does it??? It does say however that he did rescue Liu Beis son though, but you were all saying wheres my proof he didnt fight, well he may have been in the battle of ChangBan but it never said one thing about him fighting through any Wei forces to rescue Liu Chan. But it seems that people want to hear what they want to hear and ignore that i put Zhao Yuns SGZ biography on here for a point and that is that it doesnt say if he actually fought anyone to save chan.


Firstly, I have already explained that if Zhao Yun didn't fight, that didn't prove his not being brave - his courage was proven prior to his saving Liu Shan. Secondly:

Zhao Yun's SGZ biography wrote:Zhao Yun carried the young child, who was Liu Shan and also protected Lady Gan, the mother of Liu Shan, hence all of them were able to escape the dangers.


Notice how it says Zhao Yun protected Lady Gan? Now, if Zhao Yun did indeed protect Lady Gan, as his SGZ bio states, then he must have protected her from enemy forces. That obvious insinuates he did indeed fight.


You are quite right there is no English version of SGZ. I dont see the point your making.

Also insinuation does not mean that that he did fight, he could have just scared off some enemy soldiers. And courage isnt saying you will do something, it is when you actually perform the act that you are truly courageous. The SGZ biography never says that he actually fought, insinuations are just that, you can take them whichever way you wish to. If you had to answer, yes or no, did the SGZ bio actually say that he fought what would your answer be. And if he protected her then why did she die? The basis of the act is brave. It would have taken tremendous courage to perform the act as its portrayed in SGYY, but the act never happened in SGZ which probably means that it never happened in real life. But if you want to debate this, then in that case it is an insinuation.

Now for anyone who wants proof that Zhao didnt suffer any injuries at Chang Ban here it is. Zhao Yun would have died if he got injured. He was a hemophiliac, which means his blood would not clot if he got cut so he would eventually die from blood loss if he got an injury, unless it was a very very small injury. This is actually true though i dont know if the part about him dying from a needle prick is true though.
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