Zhao Yun, Dian Wei or Zhou Tai-bravest of the brave

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Whose the bravest?

Zhao Yun
98
46%
Zhou Tai
38
18%
Dian Wei
79
37%
 
Total votes : 215

Unread postby Asellas » Sun Oct 12, 2003 5:24 pm

Zhou Tai wasn't on a horse, he couldn't go the speed of what Zhao Yun did on a horse so Zhou Tai had to fight to make his way thruogh knowing that he could have ben killed from behind because when he was saving Sun Quan, a whole load of troops were fighting Zhou Tai.

Your point about there wasn;t any proof of Zhao Yun charging with 10 cavalry people is also like, there is no proof that Zhao Yun went through that many troops to save the child prince so there could have been a few hundred, that's it, the exact number wasn't known.

I agree with DianWei that eh made a mistake but then again Zhao didn;''t know Liu Shan would be the way he was so can't fight with that point there.
Dian Wei is also better than Zhao Yun in my opinion as if it wasn't for him then Wei would have been destroyed since Cao Cao's son and Nephew were killed in fan Castle.
Dian Wei didn;t want to lead attacks or expect rewards but so he could be his loyal loyal bodyguard and do all he could and he died noble and bravely... act of valour he comitted.
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Unread postby Sam » Sun Oct 12, 2003 5:55 pm

Ryan wrote:Zhou Tai wasn't on a horse, he couldn't go the speed of what Zhao Yun did on a horse so Zhou Tai had to fight to make his way thruogh knowing that he could have ben killed from behind because when he was saving Sun Quan, a whole load of troops were fighting Zhou Tai.


A horse? How can you separate two deeds by a single horse? For one thing, it would have been absolutely impossible for Zhao Yun to save both Lady Mi and Liu Shan without the aid of a horse: his having a horse was essential for the success of his mission. Zhou Tai's having a horse, however, wasn't. Also, Zhao Yun would be travelling great distances, and it would have been impossible for him to find the two if travelling on foot. Lastly, a horse doesn't effect one's ability in combat all that much.

Ryan wrote:Your point about there wasn;t any proof of Zhao Yun charging with 10 cavalry people is also like, there is no proof that Zhao Yun went through that many troops to save the child prince so there could have been a few hundred, that's it, the exact number wasn't known.


Be realistic, Ryan. Liu Bei was the main priority at that point. There is no chance in hell Zhao Yun would take a few hundred soldiers away from Liu Bei in order save Lady Mi and Liu Shan. Heck, I don't think Liu Bei even had hundreds of cavalry with him at Chang Ban.
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Unread postby Asellas » Sun Oct 12, 2003 6:23 pm

Be realistic? I am. If there was a competition between 2 people we'll take Zhao Yun and Zhou Tai and see who could save there lords/prince's first. Zhao Yun on horse and Zhou Tai on foot.
Hmm... well, Zhao Yun would easily save them quicker and he had a horse and was less vulnerable to attack and he just charged through whereas Zhou Tai killed lots of people and he had more chance of dying.

Zhou Tai endured hard labour as I could call it to break through the enemy forces and Save the young Wu lord whereas Zhao Yun had many advantages like having a horse with him and possibly a couple of men.
I commend Zhou Tai more because he was a one man army and he done all he could to save Sun Quan, he had more dis-advantages when he was rescuing.

Also, Sun Quan was more important as if he died, Wu would have probably fallen very easily and quickly since he only had 1 or 2 kids who were very young and so if one of themt ook charge, there ministers would make descision for them since in them days governers and ministers had more power than children whom were lords that's a different story though... :roll: .
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Unread postby Sam » Sun Oct 12, 2003 6:41 pm

Ryan wrote:Be realistic? I am. If there was a competition between 2 people we'll take Zhao Yun and Zhou Tai and see who could save there lords/prince's first. Zhao Yun on horse and Zhou Tai on foot.
Hmm... well, Zhao Yun would easily save them quicker and he had a horse and was less vulnerable to attack and he just charged through whereas Zhou Tai killed lots of people and he had more chance of dying.


..Did you even read what I just posted? By the looks of your argument, the only thing you read was "be realistic". Read through my post and attempt to counter my argument, as what you just said ignores everything I have just said. Regarding what you have said though - if you wanted to see "who could save their master the fastest", then of course it would be Zhou Tai. Zhou Tai and Sun Quan were on the very same ship. He didn't need a horse to find Sun Quan, while Zhao Yun needed a horse to find Lady Mi and Liu Shan. I don’t know how you can come to the conclusion that it would take Zhou Tai longer just because he didn’t have a horse. Zhao Yun had the distance of miles to travel, while Zhou Tai had the distance of a single ship to travel. Please, read though my post.

Ryan wrote:Zhou Tai endured hard labour as I could call it to break through the enemy forces and Save the young Wu lord whereas Zhao Yun had many advantages like having a horse with him and possibly a couple of men.
I commend Zhou Tai more because he was a one man army and he done all he could to save Sun Quan, he had more dis-advantages when he was rescuing.


What has this got to do with anything? You are completely avoiding my argument. I have already explained why Zhao Yun needed a horse with him, and there is no evidence he had a couple of men with him.

Ryan wrote:Also, Sun Quan was more important as if he died, Wu would have probably fallen very easily and quickly since he only had 1 or 2 kids who were very young and so if one of themt ook charge, there ministers would make descision for them since in them days governers and ministers had more power than children whom were lords that's a different story though... :roll: .


And this shows more bravery in Zhou Tai because..?
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Unread postby Asellas » Sun Oct 12, 2003 6:44 pm

Yeah, I read though your posts and some of it is your opinion and thoughts. I was saying my opinions.
I wasn;t insinuating that Zhou Tai saving Quan was more important that saving Liu Shan justifies that Zhou tai was better but I was making it seem like that but not actually that.

Ok, I admit defeat, I better go revise it, hehe. best debate though ive done :roll:
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Unread postby Li Ruiyue » Sun Oct 12, 2003 7:27 pm

I think Zhao Yun is the bravest.

Ryan has a point about Zhao Yun being on a horse...but is that really the point of this?

Well anyway, I found it amusing and ironic that after all the effort Zhao Yun put into rescuing Liu Shan, Liu Bei responds by just throwing Liu Shan to the ground!

Okay, Liu Bei was just saying that he had rather lose his son than his general, but if cared so much about the peasants, why not his own son?
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Unread postby Ma Zhi Xuan » Sun Oct 12, 2003 8:02 pm

The Great Lu Xun wrote:Okay, Liu Bei was just saying that he had rather lose his son than his general, but if cared so much about the peasants, why not his own son?


Because if a leader is not in harmony and understanding with the people of the state, one cannot bring forth an army in the first place.
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Unread postby Li Ruiyue » Sun Oct 12, 2003 8:07 pm

Ma Zhi Xuan wrote:
The Great Lu Xun wrote:Okay, Liu Bei was just saying that he had rather lose his son than his general, but if cared so much about the peasants, why not his own son?


Because if a leader is not in harmony and understanding with the people of the state, one cannot bring forth an army in the first place.


Good point there, I didn't think of that...
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Unread postby Separation Anxiety » Sun Oct 12, 2003 8:26 pm

There is no proof that Zhao actually performed the act he was suppose to have performed. Someone said that there is no proof of how many people were with or against Zhao. He could ahve been riding without anyone to challenge him. He didnt even get injured. If there were that many people fighting him dont you think that someone would think, this guy is our enemy but he is riding a horse and killing people left and right and he is alone, lets just shoot him with arrows. Zhou Tai and Dian weis act actually have undisputable evidence they happened. They both had severe injuries and Dian Wei died because of it. Once again Zhao also inadvertedly caused the end of Shu, and he also continually brags about this event so much it makes me sick. Zhou Tai never bragged about savin Sun Quan. By bragging constantly it takes credibility away from Zhao. If he had never done this act then he would be considered just a bodyguard like most consider Dian Wei. Zhao was originally bodyguard for Liu bei. He also had no other great acts beside this one. Dian Wei saved Caos life more than once and he gets credit just for the last time. Also Dian Wei was much more feared than Zhao ever was. No one was afraid of Zhao Yuns corpse. Zhao Yun never used human bodys as a weapon. Zhao Yun was a joke in my opinion. All his victories on the field were because of trickery and someone elses plotting. He never accomplished any more great acts of bravery after this one act, that he was ordered to do/ Dian Wei and Zhou tais acts were totally selfless and they chose to put their lives on the line and fight for their leader. Zhao Yun rode a horse so he could escape from battle.
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Zhao Yun

Unread postby Iain » Mon Oct 13, 2003 2:12 am

I was going to take issue with certain points raised but I think I'll instead state that Zhao Yun appears throughout the entire book as a symbol of loyality and heroism.
Dian Wei appears for maybe twenty pages and gets drunk on duty his weapons stolen and Cao Cao endangered.
Zhou Tai appears a fair bit in the book and his rescue of Sun Quan is brave; But I still feel that saveing a helpless baby and then protecting that child as you ride through Cao Cao's lines is more dangerous than trying to protect a fully grown adult who should know to stay in the back lines behind his men.
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