Zhao Yun, Dian Wei or Zhou Tai-bravest of the brave

Best threads of the SGYYS, for your viewing pleasure.

Whose the bravest?

Zhao Yun
98
46%
Zhou Tai
37
17%
Dian Wei
79
37%
 
Total votes : 214

Re: Zhao Yun, Dian Wei or Zhou Tai-bravest of the brave

Unread postby PhoenixRising » Tue Apr 17, 2012 10:19 am

Dong Zhou wrote:Yes it is :wink:

On a pedantic note, wasn't Zhang Fei opart of the rescue party when Lady Sun took Liu Shan?


well at least he tried first but then Zhang Fei come to the rescue :lol:

the intention saving Liu Chan without questioning that quite amaze me. Foolish but brave. Act first, consequences later. :mrgreen:
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Re: Zhao Yun, Dian Wei or Zhou Tai-bravest of the brave

Unread postby Elitemsh » Tue Apr 17, 2012 1:29 pm

Dong Zhou wrote:Yes it is :wink:

On a pedantic note, wasn't Zhang Fei opart of the rescue party when Lady Sun took Liu Shan?


Two versions of that. One where Zhang Fei and Zhao Yun stop her. This is the widely accepted version and the one that Rafe refers to. The other is from Lady Gan's SGZ or was it Liu Shan's. I remember reading it at 3kingoms.net. It says that Zhuge Liang ordered Zhao Yun to go after her and get the boy back. I doubt this was true though because Lady Sun and the boy were under Zhao Yun's jurisdiction (intentionally I might add). I believe the first version. Why Zhang Fei was involved at all? He (Fei) was further East, I believe, and situated closer to Wu. She must have made it into his turf making it his problem now too.
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Re: Zhao Yun, Dian Wei or Zhou Tai-bravest of the brave

Unread postby Striga » Wed Apr 18, 2012 1:28 am

I believe Zhang Fei just made it worse, by killing the commander who was escorting SSX back to Wu.
Boarding a ship on your own, full of hostile warriors who are adept on the sea is a lot like a naval version of Chang Ban. I suppose Yun probably had troops with him.
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Re: Zhao Yun, Dian Wei or Zhou Tai-bravest of the brave

Unread postby The Great Gan Xingba » Tue May 21, 2013 12:08 pm

Guys, Zhao Yun probably never did an act of that caliber. Luo Guanzhong was an ENORMOUS Shu fanboy, and he greatly romanticised their image. Dian Wei and Zhou Tai, in my opinion, are equally great, both are fierce, dedicated bodyguards. Zhao Yun, however, is greatly beneath them.
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Re: Zhao Yun, Dian Wei or Zhou Tai-bravest of the brave

Unread postby Sun Fin » Tue May 21, 2013 2:04 pm

The Great Gan Xingba wrote:Guys, Zhao Yun probably never did an act of that caliber. Luo Guanzhong was an ENORMOUS Shu fanboy, and he greatly romanticised their image. Dian Wei and Zhou Tai, in my opinion, are equally great, both are fierce, dedicated bodyguards. Zhao Yun, however, is greatly beneath them.


OK, there is a debate on whether Zhao Yun's actions at Chang Ban were exaggerated (I'm sure Elitemsh will enlighten you on the arguments in Zhao Yun's favour) however there is also his actions at Han Zhong that you have to take in to account. This achievement was actually given to ZGL in the novel rather than Zhao Yun however you can find it written in his SGZ:

In the twenty-fourth year of JianAn (AD 219), Zhao Yun went with Liu Bei to attack Hanzhong. After the Shu army had killed Xiahou Yuan, Cao Cao gathered a large army to Hanzhong in response. There was an incident whereby the Cao army was transporting a large supply of grain to the bottom of the Northern Mountain. Huang Zhong saw that as an opportunity to intercept the food supply and he led his followers as well as Zhao Yun’s to attack the food supply chain. When Huang Zhong failed to return by the scheduled time, Zhao Yun brought along some light cavalry to assist Huang Zhong. After a short period of journeying, they met up with Cao Cao’s main force. Zhao Yun fought with Cao Cao’s vanguard but the latter’s troops were quickly reinforced in large amounts, forcing Zhao Yun to beat a retreat. The Cao army had Zhao Yun’s troops surrounded and by the time Zhao Yun managed to break out of the enemies’ lines, he realized that his subordinate Zhang Zhu was injured. Zhao Yun charged back into the enemies’ midst to rescue Zhang Zhu before they retreated back to their camp. At that time, the governor of Mianyang county Zhang Yi was helping to defend the camp. When he saw the size of the Cao army coming, he shut the gates and refused to defend. Zhao Yun realized of the immensity of the enemy’s troops and found it impossible to defend the camp. Thus he ordered for the gates to be opened, the flags taken down and the beating of drums ceased. When the Cao army arrived at the camp, they suspected of a possible ambush and retreated hastily. Zhao Yun then ordered for the drums to be beaten and also arrows be shot. The Cao army was taken by surprise by the sudden noise and was put to disarray and stampeding and many were drowned in the River Han nearby. The next day, Liu Bei came to Zhao Yun’s camp to inspect the outcome of the battle and could not help but praise Zhao Yun for his bravery. From then on, Zhao Yun was nicknamed among the Shu army as General of Tiger Valor (Hu Wei Jiang Jun).
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Re: Zhao Yun, Dian Wei or Zhou Tai-bravest of the brave

Unread postby Striga » Wed May 22, 2013 1:37 am

Hmm, I thought we were arguing novel at that time. Historically, I can't really give an opinion on this topic.

And regardless of how much LGZ is going to exaggerate things, with the exception of Guan Yu and Zhuge Liang, most real people had only their personal achievements (albeit buoyed up a lot like Zhao Yun's ChangBan).
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Re: Zhao Yun, Dian Wei or Zhou Tai-bravest of the brave

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Wed May 22, 2013 5:51 am

The Great Gan Xingba wrote:Guys, Zhao Yun probably never did an act of that caliber. Luo Guanzhong was an ENORMOUS Shu fanboy, and he greatly romanticised their image. Dian Wei and Zhou Tai, in my opinion, are equally great, both are fierce, dedicated bodyguards. Zhao Yun, however, is greatly beneath them.


True, LGZ was writing a pro Shu novel for nationalist/political reasons but that doesn't mean other figures didn't get exaggerated or Zhao Yun did not do an act of great heroisim (like Hanzhong)
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Re: Zhao Yun, Dian Wei or Zhou Tai-bravest of the brave

Unread postby Jordan » Mon Jun 10, 2013 3:29 am

Dian Wei sacrificed his life for Cao Cao.

Zhou Tai put his life on the line for Sun Quan. He nearly died, but managed to survive.

Zhao Yun went behind enemy lines to save his ruler's son, but it's hard to tell how much danger he was in, exactly. There is a dearth of information.

All three were brave acts, but I would say that Zhou Tai and Dian Wei are tied for the bravest.
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Re: Zhao Yun, Dian Wei or Zhou Tai-bravest of the brave

Unread postby Zhuanyong » Tue Jun 25, 2013 4:15 am

Jordan wrote:Dian Wei sacrificed his life for Cao Cao.

Zhou Tai put his life on the line for Sun Quan. He nearly died, but managed to survive.

Zhao Yun went behind enemy lines to save his ruler's son, but it's hard to tell how much danger he was in, exactly. There is a dearth of information.

All three were brave acts, but I would say that Zhou Tai and Dian Wei are tied for the bravest.


Based on your statement Jordan, I would have to say they are all probably tied for "bravest".

The reason I say that is because it takes bravery to willingly cast aside your life to defend another. All three men did that in SGYY, at the core of what they did. It just happens that Dian Wei died in the act. Zhou Tai would have died for his cause had it led to that, and for arguments sake Zhao Yun probably would have too. I would agree with the sentiment that of the three, Zhao Yun is the hardest to defend because his act at Changban was a seemingly a retrieve and escape mission. He wasn't trying to defend someone else's escape which meant he could attempt to flee as soon as he retrieved Ah Dou.
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Re: Zhao Yun, Dian Wei or Zhou Tai-bravest of the brave

Unread postby Jordan » Tue Jun 25, 2013 6:36 am

I agree with your analysis. Those are pretty much my thoughts as well.
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