Lu Bu or Liu Bei: who is the bigger traitor?

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Lu Bu or Liu Bei: who is the bigger traitor?

Unread postby Separation Anxiety » Sat Sep 20, 2003 2:37 am

Ok i want to know who is the biggest traitor of them all. I have narrowed it down to Liu Bei and Lu Bu. I chose Lu Bu for obvious reasons, though i don't get why he was so hated. And i chose Liu Bei for many reasons. First off he betrayed many more people than Lu Bu did. He betrayed Cao Cao, Yuan Shao, Lu Bu, Liu Zhang, and a few others. He never took it as far as killing them, except for killing Lu Bu, who might i add only betrayed Bei because Zhang Fei got drunk and beat a relative of his. Lu Bu also killed Dong Zhuo which makes him alot better than Liu Bei. Liu Bei was parading around "trying to restore the Han" with numerous failed campaigns against Wei. I never once heard anything about Liu Bei searching out the deposed emperor and tryin to restore his position as emperor. And some of you might say the emperor died, which isn't true, he actually out live Liu Bei by two years. Liu Bei was a traitor to all those i mentioned and to the Han. I despise him and his attempts at trying to be the virtuous hero that he really wasn't.

Also i dont want to hear that Liu Bei wasn't a traitor and he was a great general and emperor who was kind to his people. Truth be told he was kind to his people because Shu was had a poor economy, and its the least he could do. If he didn't have Zhuge he and Sun Quan would have been flushed down the toilet and Chi Bi
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Re: Lu Bu or Liu Bei who is the bigger traitor??

Unread postby jiuwan » Sat Sep 20, 2003 3:11 am

Dian_Wei wrote:Also i dont want to hear that Liu Bei wasn't a traitor and he was a great general and emperor who was kind to his people.


If you're gonna debate it that way, then why didn't you bring Sun Quan into it as well? Sun Quan's betrayals were greater than Liu Bei's and Lu Bu's combined! :shock:
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Re: Lu Bu or Liu Bei who is the bigger traitor??

Unread postby Iain » Sat Sep 20, 2003 5:33 am

Dian_Wei wrote: I chose Lu Bu for obvious reasons, though i don't get why he was so hated.

You dont know why he was so hated? How about killing his adoptive father, twice! Raiding the ancient Han tombs, being Dong Zhou's willing lap dog, the man was a bully and untrustworthy he betrayed many of the people you blame Lui Bei for, hows that for a start?

Dian_Wei wrote:And i chose Liu Bei for many reasons. First off he betrayed many more people than Lu Bu did. He betrayed Cao Cao, Yuan Shao, Lu Bu, Liu Zhang, and a few others. He never took it as far as killing them, except for killing Lu Bu,


Actually I thought that Cao Cao killed Lu Bu, Lu Bei had an opinon but it was Cao Cao that was controlling the executions. Lui Bei may have plotted against Cao Cao but was that not to save the precious Han emperor you say he did nothing to help.
Yuan Shao lost two officers to Guan Yu who was not acting under Lui Bei at the time, Lui Bei left Yuan he did not betray him, Yuan was crazy and almost had Lui Bei killed, I'd leave too.
Cao Cao told Lui Bei to kill Lu Bu but Lui Bei would not do it(despite Zhang Feis insistance)but many people would ally themselfs with Bu just to strike at Bei .

Dian_Wei wrote: And some of you might say the emperor died, which isn't true, he actually out live Liu Bei by two years.


Really? I'd like to check that, I can find no mention of the emperor after Cao Pi deposes him, I'd always imagined he'd come to a nasty end to Cao Hong or some other Wei supporter shortly after leaveing. I could be wrong on that but would you leave him alive to be perhaps re-enstated? Liu Bei was a traitor to all those i mentioned and to the Han. I despise him and his attempts at trying to be the virtuous hero that he really wasn't.

Dian_Wei wrote: If he didn't have Zhuge he and Sun Quan would have been flushed down the toilet and Chi Bi


Well I'm sure that Zhou Yu and the entire Wu army did something at Chi Bi.
All my information comes from the Romance of the three kingdoms books so hopefully I am not too off on this.
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Unread postby waynethegame » Sat Sep 20, 2003 12:23 pm

Who was the bigger traitor? It depends on who you ask; Pro-Shu people will naturally deny that Liu Bei was a traitor of any sort, so it's really useless to ask this kind of question since none of us were alive during that time to actually know what was going on, and we all have our own opinions.

Personally I feel that Liu Bei was a traitor and a charlatan who only got places by lying, cheating and using the fact he was a very distant relative to a former Han emperor, but I'm Pro-Wei (not to mention a fan of Lu Bu) so my opinion is biased.
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traitors

Unread postby Goergyboy » Sat Sep 20, 2003 5:09 pm

Well I'm Pro-Wu so I don't know if that means anything since I am more of a middle man in this debate. However, I would have to say Lu Bu was the biggest traitor. He did kill his adoptive fathers, and he denied his generals opinions for his wife and concubines opinions. Sure it seems like heart felt sentiment, but they did not know the dire situation they were in which led to Lu Bu being betrayed by his commanders. Lui Bei did advise Cao Cao to kill Lu Bu since Lu Bu offered to be Cao's adoptive son, but Lui Bei reminded Cao that Lu Bu "has a taste for fatherly blood." May not be the exact quote. Perhaps he did it because he feared that if Lu Bu did join Cao Cao he would be that much greater a threat, but noone knows what goes inside anothers head. Lui Bei did leave alot of people who he was in service of but that was because he was fearing for his life. Sun Quan, Yuan Shu, Cao Cao these are just three of the people Lui Bei served who tried to kill him. The main thing between Lui Bei and Sun Quan argument is Jing Zhou. I myself feel that Lui Bei did deserve it. He used Zhuge Liang's cunning plan to take it while Wu fought Wei. Of course it does seem unfair, but Wu was not careful enough about Lui Bei's true intentions. Of course there is one major thing that defends Lu Bu against Lui Bei. The book favors Lui Bei. He is described the most, and his virtue is shown in great abundance. There had to be times when even Lui Bei got mad, but didn't do something as drastic as Cao Cao would. Thats the thing I do not like about Cao Cao. He does one thing and then mourns what he has done right after. He does it so often its ridiculous. He kills one of his own generals who at Chi Bi saw the importance of preparing the troops rather than singing and Cao ran him through. And then to justify everything gives them a high title upon their death by his folly. Really makes me sick, but thats a topic for another day.
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Re: Lu Bu or Liu Bei who is the bigger traitor??

Unread postby Separation Anxiety » Sat Sep 20, 2003 6:47 pm

[quote="DynastyIain"]

Actually I thought that Cao Cao killed Lu Bu, Lu Bei had an opinon but it was Cao Cao that was controlling the executions. Lui Bei may have plotted against Cao Cao but was that not to save the precious Han emperor you say he did nothing to help.

Cao Cao told Lui Bei to kill Lu Bu but Lui Bei would not do it(despite Zhang Feis insistance)but many people would ally themselfs with Bu just to strike at Bei .[quote]

Cao Cao was going to let Lu Bu into his service and Liu Bei said something to the effect that Lu Bu would only betray him, funny coming from a man who would only betray and try to kill Cao Cao himself.

Im not quite sure of this but i heard that Liu Bei actually had Lu Bu killed but in the book it says that Cao Cao had him killed but because Liu Bei wanted him to, and that it was a way of glorifying Liu Bei, but that is just something i heard
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Unread postby Wen Choung » Sat Sep 20, 2003 8:00 pm

Just because Liu Bei failed on his restoration campaigns doesn't make him a traitor. Is Al Gore a traitor to the US because he wasn't elected as president? Absolutely not! Liu Bei's successes or failures should not be considered if you want to find who was a bigger traitor.

If Liu Bei was really a traitor, he wouldn't have called his kingdom Shu-Han would he?

I mean at least he also had some sort of legitimate claim since he was from the imperial family, whereas Cao Cao and Sun Quan did not.

I think the most despicable act of Liu Bei is conquering Liu Zhang. Other than "it was necessary" there really is no argument for it.

Lu Bu on the other hand, his killing his two adopted fathers is enough to make the whole world to hate him.

I mean even today, what would it look like to you if you heard on the news some kid killed his dad, was imprisoned, and then sent to a foster home- just to kill his foster father? I don't think he'd be the most popular kid at school.
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Unread postby Lance » Sun Sep 21, 2003 12:13 am

Lu Bu, IMAO, was BY FAR a bigger traitor. Sure, many of Liu Bei's acts are questionable, but I don't recall him murdering his adoptive father for a pretty horse offered by a man EVERYONE knew was a power-hungry tyrant. Lu Bu's assasination of Dong Zhuo is also inexcusable. Sure, Dong Zhuo mistreated Lu Bu, but Lu Bu went right ahead and violated the two most "sacred" of relationships in Confucian philosophy, that of Father and Son as well as Liege and Officer, and for what? A pretty woman and power. Sure, Wang Yun manipulated Lu Bu, but Fengxian KNEW what he was doing, and did it anyways. Lu Bu then stole Yu from Cao Cao, was defeated, and fled to Xu, and Liu Bei took him in. When Liu Bei was out campaigning against Yuan Shu, he stole Xu from Liu Bei, and when the latter returned, stuffed the latter into a measely prefecture simply to placate him. Liu Bei teamed up with Cao Cao, and helped in putting down a great traitor.
Liu Bei's offenses are minor, especially when compared to Fengxian's. First, he fought against Lu Bu, with good reason. After Lu Bu was defeated, Cao Cao restored Liu to Xu. While there, Liu Bei gets invited into Dong Cheng's Girdle Decreement, which may or may not have come from Emperor Xian. The plot is found out, Liu Bei is crushed, and flees to Yuan Shao. Guan Yu surrenders to Cao Cao, and Zhang Fei finds his way to Ru-Nan castle. Yuan Shao attacks Cao Cao, and Guan Yu kills Wen Chou and Yan Liang, each time Yuan Shao wants to execute Liu Bei, and but his advisors(was it Ju Shou?) talked him out of it. Soon afterwards, Liu Bei travels to Ru-Nan, and gets beat again. Liu Biao gives Bei Xin-Ye. Liu Biao dies, Liu Zong surrenders, Liu Bei flees, putting Xin-Ye to the torch, and bringing along a large following of peasants that apparently came of their own will. Liu Bei is crushed at Dang-Yang, but makes it alive to Jiang-Xia and is taken in by Liu Qi. Forms an alliance with Sun Quan, battle of Chi-Bi. Zhou Yu captures Jiang-Ling, dies, and Lu Su gives said city to Liu Bei. Fast forward.....Cao Pi deposes Emperor Xian, Liu Bei declares himself Emperor of the Han. Also, back in his Ping-Yuan days, Liu Yu gets attacked by Gongsun Zan, and Liu Yu asks Liu Bei's for aid. Bei refuses, and it should be noted that Zan was his friend....there, now please excuse me while I take oxygen....
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Unread postby Separation Anxiety » Sun Sep 21, 2003 12:52 am

Wen Choung wrote:If Liu Bei was really a traitor, he wouldn't have called his kingdom Shu-Han would he?

I mean at least he also had some sort of legitimate claim since he was from the imperial family, whereas Cao Cao and Sun Quan did not.


Ok first of all naming his kingdom Shu Han doesn't mean he was still loyal. He still did make himself emperor. And Shu Han was the name of the provinces that the kingdom was based in just like the capitol of Wei is in the fief of Wei.

Also there were numerous people that that had more legitimate claims to throne, like Emperor Xian for starters, but he made himself emperor anyways. He was a distant relative of the emperor, the emperor had never even heard of him, so how is it legitimate. Cao Cao was already prime minister to the crumbling empire, if he didn't take power than Liu Bei would have anyways, because Cao Cao was more open with his ambition while Liu bei silently plotted to kill Cao Cao for nothing but the reason that Cao Cao had a powerful position, which was willingly given to Cao Cao after he saved the emperors life from Guo Si and Li Jue.
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Unread postby Jon » Sun Sep 21, 2003 1:17 am

Ok first of all naming his kingdom Shu Han doesn't mean he was still loyal.
Agreed.
He still did make himself emperor.
Since when? I know he was aiming to be, yet... He didn't actually claim to be the emperor and give his generals titles only one of that class should distribute. You are thinking about Yuan Shu here.
And Shu Han was the name of the provinces that the kingdom was based in just like the capitol of Wei is in the fief of Wei.
The kingdom of Shu was based in Yi. I know there is a Ba-Shu in that area, so you may be right. But that doesn't explain the Han suffix.

Also there were numerous people that that had more legitimate claims to throne, like Emperor Xian for starters, but he made himself emperor anyways. He was a distant relative of the emperor, the emperor had never even heard of him, so how is it legitimate. Cao Cao was already prime minister to the crumbling empire, if he didn't take power than Liu Bei would have anyways
Someone more capable and suited would have likely done what Cao Cao wouldn't have, I wouldn't think Liu Bei would have had the power to do something like that.
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