Lu Bu or Liu Bei: who is the bigger traitor?

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Unread postby Lady Zhuge » Tue Oct 07, 2003 4:33 am

Dian_Wei wrote:No matter how you cut it Lu Bu was going to kill Dong Zhuo, i dont deny that fact. I am trying to say that he had to when he got the decree from the emperor. If he didnt kill Dong Zhuo, then he would be labelled a traitor.


Too late. He was already a traitor before he killed Dong Zhuo.
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Unread postby Separation Anxiety » Tue Oct 07, 2003 10:21 pm

Who at that time period called him a traitor, besides Liu Bei and his brothers, who called every single person that went against them traitors
(which means that Liu Bei is not only a traitor but a hypocrite also)
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Unread postby Lady Zhuge » Tue Oct 07, 2003 10:36 pm

Dian_Wei wrote:Who at that time period called him a traitor, besides Liu Bei and his brothers, who called every single person that went against them traitors
(which means that Liu Bei is not only a traitor but a hypocrite also)


Who at that time wouldn't have considered him a traitor? Lu Bu thought he had done Yuan Shu a big favor by killing Dong Zhuo, but really, Yuan Shu was disgusted with his traitorous behavior. Lu Bu had already backstabbed Ding Yuan before that as well. 'Nuff said.
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Unread postby Separation Anxiety » Wed Oct 08, 2003 2:57 am

That was not an answer to my question. Also as you should know Yuan Shu was going to help Lu Bu by sending troops to Lu Bu. And i didnt ask who didn't like him i asked who had verbally called him a traitor for killing Dong Zhuo. Also the incident to Ding Yuan was also the only way that Lu Bu could have served under the prime minister of the Han who basically, but not exactly, ordered Lu Bu to kill Ding Yuan. When he killed both Ding Yuan and Dong Zhuo it was ordered by a higher power, whether it was the prime minister or the emperor, there is no disputing that Lu Bu wouldn't have killed Ding yuan if Li Ru, or whoever came to talk to him, would not have said kill Ding Yuan to come into Dong Zhuos service. He was going to kill Dong Zhuo also, but not until after Dong Zhuo betrayed Lu bu by throwing a lance at him.
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Unread postby Lady Zhuge » Wed Oct 08, 2003 3:05 am

Dian_Wei wrote:That was not an answer to my question. Also as you should know Yuan Shu was going to help Lu Bu by sending troops to Lu Bu. And i didnt ask who didn't like him i asked who had verbally called him a traitor for killing Dong Zhuo. Also the incident to Ding Yuan was also the only way that Lu Bu could have served under the prime minister of the Han who basically, but not exactly, ordered Lu Bu to kill Ding Yuan. When he killed both Ding Yuan and Dong Zhuo it was ordered by a higher power, whether it was the prime minister or the emperor, there is no disputing that Lu Bu wouldn't have killed Ding yuan if Li Ru, or whoever came to talk to him, would not have said kill Ding Yuan to come into Dong Zhuos service. He was going to kill Dong Zhuo also, but not until after Dong Zhuo betrayed Lu bu by throwing a lance at him.


There's no difference between calling someone a traitor and considering someone a traitor. For instance, I can think that someone is a jerk without actually calling that person a jerk to his face or even out loud. In fact, words are quite shallow.
No one ordered Lu Bu to abandon Ding Yuan for higher prospects in the first place. That was his OWN choice. And part of that choice to further himself resulted in Dong Zhuo wanting him to kill Ding Yuan. Note the significance in what I have highlighted. Continuing to ignore that fact doesn't make it any less true. In fact, it makes it a stronger point because it's obvious that you cannot defend against it. Don't try to make it seem like Lu Bu was backed into a corner and had no choice; he arrived there on his own accord. All you've done has been making excuses for a backstabber.
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Unread postby Iain » Wed Oct 08, 2003 5:40 am

Dian_Wei wrote: And i didnt ask who didn't like him i asked who had verbally called him a traitor for killing Dong Zhuo.

Well Lui Bei brought that up at Lu Bu's execution when Bu was begging for his life; Cao Cao agreed that Bu could not be trusted.
Dian_Wei wrote: Also the incident to Ding Yuan was also the only way that Lu Bu could have served under the prime minister of the Han who basically, but not exactly, ordered Lu Bu to kill Ding Yuan. When he killed both Ding Yuan and Dong Zhuo it was ordered by a higher power,

Ok Lu Bu came up with the idea to kill his old master on his own; Dong Zhou didnt order him. Incidentally what crime had Ding Yuan commited that warrented his immediate death, the Emperor didnt order that.
And instead of calling Dong Zhou 'Prime Minister' how about his more well known terms like 'Killer of the rightful Emperor' or 'He who holds the current Emperor hostage'; Face facts most prime ministers try not to go around killing and rapeing and pillaging across the land in their first few years in office.
And stop trying to say the Emperor said this and commanded that; The Emperor had Zero authority where Dong Zhou was involved.
Dian_Wei wrote: He was going to kill Dong Zhuo also, but not until after Dong Zhuo betrayed Lu bu by throwing a lance at him.

Yes not untill Lu Bu sneaked away from Dong Zhou to go to Dong's private bedrooms to have a quiet hug with Diao Chan; thats quite the loyal servant there, seems almost traitorous those actions.
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Unread postby Jon » Wed Oct 08, 2003 11:25 am

DynastyIain wrote:Well Lui Bei brought that up at Lu Bu's execution when Bu was begging for his life; Cao Cao agreed that Bu could not be trusted.
Yep.
Ok Lu Bu came up with the idea to kill his old master on his own; Dong Zhou didnt order him. Incidentally what crime had Ding Yuan commited that warrented his immediate death, the Emperor didnt order that.
And instead of calling Dong Zhou 'Prime Minister' how about his more well known terms like 'Killer of the rightful Emperor' or 'He who holds the current Emperor hostage'; Face facts most prime ministers try not to go around killing and rapeing and pillaging across the land in their first few years in office.
And stop trying to say the Emperor said this and commanded that; The Emperor had Zero authority where Dong Zhou was involved.
Excellent. I could not have said it any better!
Yes not untill Lu Bu sneaked away from Dong Zhou to go to Dong's private bedrooms to have a quiet hug with Diao Chan; thats quite the loyal servant there, seems almost traitorous those actions.
I can't agree with that - if that was true, Dong Zhuo betrayed Lu Bu first. While it is in a way unloyal(taking something from your master even if it was originally yours) I could see why he would do it, but then again, most more contained generals probably would not have done anything, at least not what he did.
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Unread postby Separation Anxiety » Wed Oct 08, 2003 10:29 pm

DynastyIain wrote:And stop trying to say the Emperor said this and commanded that; The Emperor had zero authority where Dong Zhou was involved.


But after Dong Zhuyo was dead who would punish Lu Bu for killing Dong Zhuo with the emperors express written permission and order, which legitimizes it as an act for the Han empire, which means that it was not an act of treason as everyone else has been putting it. I hate to repeat myself for about the fifth time but Lu Bu wanted to kill Dong Zhuo, BUT he did not kill him until the emperor ordered him to do so.

Also it was not Lu Bus idea to kill Ding Yuan. In fact he did not have a clue as to what he should do. He asked Dong Zhuos messenger what to do and he said kill Ding Yuan and bring his troops over to Dong Zhuo. Now Lady Zhuge that is a flawless defense because i am reading it right out of the book as i am typing this reply, so i must not be ignoring the facts that you have skewed and i have quoted directly from the source. If Lu Bu was not told to kill Ding Yuan, he probably would have simply took his troop to Dong Zhuo. I am sick of people trying to tell me i have the facts wrong, when i am usually looking at the text when i make my replies. Now who is ignoring the facts and making MY argument stronger.
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Unread postby Lady Zhuge » Wed Oct 08, 2003 10:38 pm

Dian_Wei wrote:
Also it was not Lu Bus idea to kill Ding Yuan. In fact he did not have a clue as to what he should do. He asked Dong Zhuos messenger what to do and he said kill Ding Yuan and bring his troops over to Dong Zhuo. Now Lady Zhuge that is a flawless defense because i am reading it right out of the book as i am typing this reply, so i must not be ignoring the facts that you have skewed and i have quoted directly from the source. If Lu Bu was not told to kill Ding Yuan, he probably would have simply took his troop to Dong Zhuo. I am sick of people trying to tell me i have the facts wrong, when i am usually looking at the text when i make my replies. Now who is ignoring the facts and making MY argument stronger.


So just because someone tells you to go kill someone else, you HAVE to do it? :roll: It doesn't matter if it was Lu Bu's idea to kill Ding Yuan or not. The fact is that he killed him. Once again, you're ignoring WHY he went over to Dong Zhuo in the first place to do his bidding. So no, your point never was strong and that remains unchanged.
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Unread postby Separation Anxiety » Wed Oct 08, 2003 10:45 pm

He chose to go to Dong Zhuo to further himself, but the ORDER was to kill Ding Yuan. It is never the less an order which is to be obeyed. So yes my argument is a tad bit stronger than yours is. Yours has no concrete evidence, it is just what ifs. Its not someone telling him to kill him, its an ORDER. Lu Bu probably wouldn't have killed him if the messenger said you COULD kill Ding Yuan, instead of saying kill Ding Yuan as the first order under dong Zhuo
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