Lu Bu or Liu Bei: who is the bigger traitor?

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Re: Lu Bu or Liu Bei: who is the bigger traitor?

Unread postby Han » Fri Dec 21, 2018 12:18 pm

1) IN THEORY? Sure. No one will like a buddy that they support when they were weak turning against you when they became more powerful especially to the point of independence. IN REALITY, thats what happened in the 3K era all the time. All the time. Cao Cao immediately detached himself from Yuan Shao the moment he got Han Xiao Xian. Lü Bu backstabbed Liu Bei who accepted him at the first instance of trouble. Sun Ce sent a "warning letter" against Yuan Shu in the aftermath of Jiangdong unification and Lü Bu pillages. Yuan Tan turned on Yuan Shang faster than you can scream "Benchu". Zhang Lu and Liu Yan/Zhang. The domestic troubles in Liang and Jiao etc etc. Liu Bei would be a fool to get wrapped up in a war he was no longer part of after more than a year when he wasnt even yet in a position to properly consolidate his devastated province. And it was not like he pointed his sword at Gongsun Zan. All he did was seeked Yuan Shao's approval. Something that Gongsun Zan was not recorded to respond to and his ally Yuan Shu not being happy with.

2) Im offering conjecture and simply musing upon his circumstances. And its not as unbelievable as you would think. Cao Cao didnt partake in any diplpmatic missions when he was fighting for Yan against Lü Bu. Same goes for Yuan Shao when it came to vs Gongsun Zan excluding one Han envoy. Now, Liu Bei was completely isolated with zero secure powerbase and being at least 2 provinces away from his master. Its not implausible that he would want all his strategic/diplomatic/emotional support as his side at all times. He made it because he wanted to convince Yuan Shao to open another front(something that Yuan Shao happily accepted) and because the bio stated that he wanted to break away from Yuan Shao.

Yes. And in theory Cao Cao would really really love it if the nomads or Liaodong struck at Yuan Shao at his rear while he was away. You said Guandu was when Yuan really really needed it and all I did was point to an even weaker moment that he needed it more and when Liu Bei did his job. And Liu Bei did eventually try. Its not his fault Liu Biao was unwilling to march northwards. What Yuan Shao needed was a second front. This was why if you read Liu Bei bio, it said 'sent him to Runan' not to 'Liu Biao' even though Liu Bei's strategy was seeking help from Liu Biao.
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Re: Lu Bu or Liu Bei: who is the bigger traitor?

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Fri Dec 21, 2018 2:47 pm

1) Not sure all of those quite fit the Liu Bei/Xu thing but: It was folly by Cao Cao to do what he did and Yuan Shao gave him a deserved political humiliation for it, Cao Cao remained his junior for a little while more. People agree Lu Bu backstabbed Liu Bei. Sun Ce backstabbed (wisely). Yuan Tan was shafted by Yuan Shang's side first if I recall rightly? Zhang Lu backstabbed. People then tell me it isn't a backstab when Liu Bei does it with Xu.

I agree Liu Bei was wise to do so, I said in my opening that it was practical. I'm just less convinced then ever it wasn't a backstab

2) I agree that there were times when warlords didn't engage in particular diplomacy (though I disagree with Yuan Shao example, I do get your wider point) but none of them had promised to act as a diplomat (via self or subordinate). The emotional need theory, possibly but Liu Bei knew situation when he offered to go to Liu Biao and when it suited him, he was willing to send envoy's (or letters) for rest of his career, it just doesn't seem very Liu Bei. Wanting out and seeking an angle to do that? Sure and I don't mean that in a mean way, reading situation and ensuring his success is what all warlords do. Why I commented is people, including myself, didn't tend to put Yuan Shao as a Liu Bei backstab when it turns out it was.

Neither of those promised to strike Yuan Shao. When Yuan Shao got the promise of Liu Bei, I don't think he had any reason to believe "after the camapign, when I more need it then you do" rather then goes to Runan then sends envoy. Yuan Shao needed it when he had a chance of winning, not when all it does is hold up an attack on his weakened kingdom.

Had Liu Bei tried and failed, no blame on him for that. He would have kept his word as best he could. He didn't till Liu Bei was needing shelter for himself.
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Re: Lu Bu or Liu Bei: who is the bigger traitor?

Unread postby Han » Sat Dec 22, 2018 3:15 am

1) Junior in terms of? The moment he acquired the Emperor, everyone was his junior in political and prestigious terms. In terms of military power, Cao Cao and Yuan were more or less equal if not Cao Cao having the slight edge. Because Lü Bu literally attacked Liu Bei. Sun Ce didnt really backstabbed. He maneuvered against him discreetly. Tan vs Shang was a shitfest from the very absolute beginning and any argument on 'who was wrong first' can go either way. Zhang Lu yes, because he took direct military action. Because Liu Bei did not maneuver against Gongsun Zan. He politically detached himself from the situation at Qing. And he never took military action or diplomatically insult Gongsun Zan.

Yes, and I already previously agreed. And Im absolutely confident it wasnt a backstab.

2) Liu Bei advise was to ally with the South. Not act as a diplomat. Which he eventually fulfilled. Its conjecture. But the 3 diplomats in Mi Zhu, Sun Qian and Jian Yong were his extremely close friends and family, relying on them for emotional support isnt that surprising. Yes, when it suited him. Him being in Runan completely isolated and relying on local bandits and getting an army sent to him by Cao Cao and then later Cao Cao himself didnt seem like an opportune time. And why Im commenting is that Liu Bei leaving Yuan Shao wasnt a backstab. 1) Yuan Shao [was forced to] abandoned Liu Bei first by retreating back after Guandu without Liu Bei even though he was the one who sent Bei to Runan while leaving Bei to solo Cao completely alone and isolated.

And 2)

https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/ ... confidence

Credit to u/_dk

Well, he wasn't born out of wedlock. More seriously, he was a product of the times, putting his own interests above those that he was allied to. Of all his former allies, he had not stabbed Cao Cao, Yuan Shao, and Sun Quan in the back, only packing his bags and left as an independent force. Think of the alternative, he could have defected, but he didn't. He left Cao Cao's patronage to be independent, only to face retaliation by Cao Cao, sending him to seek refuge under Yuan Shao. Before the clash at Guandu, he was tasked to disturb Cao Cao's rear, but he was defeated and had to flee to Liu Biao. Liu Biao welcomed him, but was wary enough of him to put him at arm's reach. When Liu Biao died, Cao Cao brought his massive army down to Jing province, and Liu Bei had to seek help from Sun Quan. After the win at Red Cliffs, Liu Bei was able to snatch cities that Cao Cao left behind before Sun Quan could get to them, and from there Liu Bei headed west into Shu, which was Liu Zhang's domain. So far no major betrayal, just opportunism. However, Liu Bei's takeover of Liu Zhang's lands was truly a backstab, since Liu Zhang welcomed him with open arms and Liu Bei ultimately attacked him after an initial show of unwillingness (or crocodile tears, you may say).


I disagree with u/_dk when it came to Cao Cao, but he got everything else more or less true.

Yes, and when Liu Bei promised Yuan Shao, I highly doubt he expected Yuan Shao would get crushed that badly, especially not that quick. And again, please reread. Yuan Shao sent him to Runan, NOT LIU BIAO. Yuan Shao still had a chance to win post Guandu, he managed to deal with the rebellions at Qing and reconsolidate his forces back at his homebase.

Except Liu Bei did try. Eventually, and failed. Yes, because Yuan Shao sent him to Runan like I sourced you previously.
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Re: Lu Bu or Liu Bei: who is the bigger traitor?

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Sat Dec 22, 2018 1:40 pm

1) Junior in terms of rank. Yuan Shao was General in Chief and Grand Commandant, Cao Cao had to demote himself to third ministerial rank. Junior in that Yuan Shao still had elements of control. Certainly miliatry power was tipping Cao Cao's way but he badly overplayed his hand on getting Emperor. Yes thus why people agree Lu Bu backstabbed Liu Bei, manovering discreetly against your lord is still against said lord. Happy to agree on Yuan sons and Zhang Lu.

He switched forces from alliance with Gongsun Zan to Yuan Shao's which then impacts the situation for Gongsun alliance and for Yuan alliance.

Fair enough you disagree. For me, due to allegiance and potential impact, it was a backstab but agree to disagree.

2) How do you think the forces were meant to contact Liu Biao? Who do you think was assigned as the Yuan envoy? I just don't think your theory fits with Liu Bei but you explained it well. For record, imperial warlords has
Given that Runan was the home of the Yuan family, and a number of local leaders had shown their support, it is surprising that Yuan Shao had sent Liu Bei, a man from the distant north with no previous connection to the region, to act as his agent there. It is likely the initiative came from Liu Bei himself and, despite his first failure, he persuaded Yuan Shao to send him again, this time with a commission to contact Liu Biao in Jing province. Though he returned to Runan, and allied with another bandit group, Cao Cao does not appear to have regarded him as a significant threat. He sent one of his junior officers, whom Liu Bei defeated and killed, but he did not do anything more.
, I agree with De Crespigny's reading that it was Liu Bei's job, clearly you read the sgz in a different manner.

Liu Bei had some time after killing Cai Yang before he faced an attacking Wei army, he could carry out his commission then.

Liu Bei isn't at fault for leaving Runan when he did. He is for not contacting Liu Biao

u/_dk writes the argument point well. I disagree on where s/he puts the line between backstab and opportunism (where I would agree is his point that Liu Bei was a product of his time) personally. Thanks for sharing

Yes, and when Liu Bei promised Yuan Shao, I highly doubt he expected Yuan Shao would get crushed that badly, especially not that quick. And again, please reread. Yuan Shao sent him to Runan, NOT LIU BIAO. Yuan Shao still had a chance to win post Guandu, he managed to deal with the rebellions at Qing and reconsolidate his forces back at his homebase.


Given Yuan Shao's slow advance and then two months seige, Liu Bei had some time to send an envoy. Yes Liu Bei was sent to Runan as Yuan Shao's commander there after proposing the southern idea, for me it makes sense that the guy who proposed it, would be in position to quickly said envoys and coordinate with Liu Biao would be the man given the task. Yuan Shao was able to rebuild his defences, not be in a position to win, Guandu was his throw of all the dice and it failed.
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Re: Lu Bu or Liu Bei: who is the bigger traitor?

Unread postby Han » Tue Dec 25, 2018 10:35 am

1) Yes, on paper Cao was Yuan junior. Like how Xu Jing was equal with Zhuge Liang. In reality, Cao Cao was clearly superior to every warlord than and there in terms of politics and prestige. The fact that Cao Cao could quickly demote himself just for the sake of appeasement shows that he had the cards and control. Yuan Shao had no elements of control. Cao Cao played his hand PERFECTLY. In the immediate aftermath of getting the Emperor, he had all of Yan, most of Yu an Sili and bits of Liang plus all the prestige and legitimacy to go along with his gains. Political maneuvers happened all the time. Li Yan vs Zhuge Liang, Cao Shuang vs Sima Yi. Not backstab.

He gained approval and neutrality from Yuan Shao. Not really alliance. Again, it was detachment not maneuver. And it was Yuan Shao vs Yuan Shu alliance not Yuan vs Gongsun. The situation was already crumbling regardless of Liu Bei.

Sure, lets agree to disagree.

2) Im not Liu Bei or Yuan Shao so I wouldnt know. Was there a Yuan envoy? Liu Bei relied on gentry support his entire career and his career was kickstarted thanks to family, merchants, gentry and peasant support. So it fits perfectly. His role not job. His role as RDC stated was to operate in Cao's rear and ally with Liu Biao, this time with Yuan Shao explicit permission. He eventually did both but prioritise the former. So no, Im not reading it differently.

Thats with hindsight. Back then, Liu Bei was completely isolated, he was dealing with Cao Cao, forming alliances with bandits and operating at Cao's rear. And he was sent to Runan as RDC took note. So no time really.

Sure.

Two months of defeating Cao forces, engaging with local elements, forming alliances. Not much time. Or the man who proposed it understood the geopolitical situation better than two internet guys more than a thousand years later and preferred to prioritise the domestic situation of Runan instead of coordinating with outside elements for the time being. An extremely divided Yuan clan was still in a position to oppose a unified Cao Cao for more than 5 years. I would argue Yuan Shao was still in a position to emerge victorious suppose he did not die that quickly. People were doubting Cao Cao vs Lü Bu during the struggle for Yan, and Liu Bei during the annexation of Sichuan. In both cases, Cao Cao and Liu Bei had much less to work with and still emerged victorious. And Yuan Shao himself was a proven and talented leader. His victory over Gongsun clearly illustrated that.
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Re: Lu Bu or Liu Bei: who is the bigger traitor?

Unread postby LiuBeiwasGreat » Tue Dec 25, 2018 5:28 pm

Didn't I resolve this argument on page 56? Man you people are stubborn :lol:
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Re: Lu Bu or Liu Bei: who is the bigger traitor?

Unread postby DaoLunOfShiji » Tue Dec 25, 2018 8:38 pm

LiuBeiwasGreat wrote:Didn't I resolve this argument on page 56? Man you people are stubborn :lol:


Liu Bei had larger ears though, so I challenge your argument! :lol:
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Re: Lu Bu or Liu Bei: who is the bigger traitor?

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Wed Dec 26, 2018 10:28 am

I also realized I should have also quoted the following paragraph from the one I did quote
For his part, Liu Biao continued to take no action, and he was in any case isolated from the conflict: his former subordinate Zhang Xiu was now a supporter of Cao Cao, while Cao Cao’s officer Li Tong controlled a marcher territory in the southwest of Runan, separating Liu Biao from Liu Bei. In general, Yuan Shao’s “southern strategy” appears to have been chiefly inspired by Liu Bei’s desire to get away; we are told that he was concerned to escape his dependence upon Yuan Shao, while Yuan Shao himself was concentrating on the direct attack against Guandu.


My very bad, I apologize and very much hold up my hands to that one, gong for one paragraph rather then both left things unfulfilled.

1) I don't think that was clear to the other warlords. :wink: On the powerplay: Sure Cao Cao had, via the Han court, the right to appoint ranks lifted his status and lifted him into the top tier of warlords but I wouldn't quite say as the top one (would say destruction of Yuan due to land power and symbolism). The clash started with Cao Cao as the highest ranked (bar Emperor) in all the land and charging Yuan Shao with faction and disloyalty. It ended with suddenly Yuan Shao wasn't disloyal, Cao Cao having to publicly demote himself to third highest rank, Yuan Shao getting the two highest ranks (that Cao Cao had to resign), an expanded enoffment, legitimacy for all his lands and some of the nine distinctions. That wasn't Cao Cao being powerful, that was Cao Cao forced to backtrack and being humiliated, while losing rank is sometimes wise politics but it is rarely a show of strength, usually to stem the damage.

Cao Cao getting made Governor of Yan rather then Inspector was a show of (relatively at the time) power, Cao Cao being forced to appease Yuan Shao, publicly acknowledge he was Yuan Shao's junior in rank and humiliate himself was not.

2) There was no Yuan envoy recorded off the top of my head after Liu Bei being sent. It really doesn't fit for me, Liu Bei sent envoys plenty of times, he sent letters (or had others do it) to get what he needed, he was willing to split his forces as situation required, I can't say Liu Bei has ever come across as a figure who was particularly insecure, let alone that he can't spare one officer to carry out a promise made.

Unless I'm misreading, you have been saying it wasn't Liu Bei's job to be the guy (or officer core/force) to contact Liu Biao but it was Yuan Shao's Liu Bei advise was to ally with the South. Not act as a diplomat. for example. But if it was, Liu Bei fulfilled by not doing it till after Liu Bei was directly attacked which you feel still counts.

Yes plenty of time. Not to go himself, that would have been a bad move, but to send an envoy or a letter.

Or the man who proposed it understood the geopolitical situation better than two internet guys more than a thousand years later and preferred to prioritise the domestic situation of Runan instead of coordinating with outside elements for the time being.


and broke a promise that the other warlord needed. For a task that wouldn't take up too much time (one or two letters to start things, which could be written by his staff, or assign an envoy) unless Liu Biao agreed.

Yuan Shao was a skilled warlord, bar political judgement, but he was not Cao Cao level. His lands were already being surrounded before Guandu, he was out-resourced and against a superior warlord, Guandu then compounds that. He (and had his sons been unified) could have provided a good resistance but it would be a defensive war and praying something broke their way
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Re: Lu Bu or Liu Bei: who is the bigger traitor?

Unread postby LiuBeiwasGreat » Wed Dec 26, 2018 2:45 pm

DaoLunOfShiji wrote:
LiuBeiwasGreat wrote:Didn't I resolve this argument on page 56? Man you people are stubborn :lol:


Liu Bei had larger ears though, so I challenge your argument! :lol:


I am going with overall body mass, yeah Liu Bei does get points for the dumbo ears but as he couldn't use them to fly they cannot make up for Lu Bu's overall larger body. :lol:
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Re: Lu Bu or Liu Bei: who is the bigger traitor?

Unread postby Han » Thu Dec 27, 2018 12:18 pm

Dong Zhou wrote:I also realized I should have also quoted the following paragraph from the one I did quote
For his part, Liu Biao continued to take no action, and he was in any case isolated from the conflict: his former subordinate Zhang Xiu was now a supporter of Cao Cao, while Cao Cao’s officer Li Tong controlled a marcher territory in the southwest of Runan, separating Liu Biao from Liu Bei. In general, Yuan Shao’s “southern strategy” appears to have been chiefly inspired by Liu Bei’s desire to get away; we are told that he was concerned to escape his dependence upon Yuan Shao, while Yuan Shao himself was concentrating on the direct attack against Guandu.


My very bad, I apologize and very much hold up my hands to that one, gong for one paragraph rather then both left things unfulfilled.

1) I don't think that was clear to the other warlords. :wink: On the powerplay: Sure Cao Cao had, via the Han court, the right to appoint ranks lifted his status and lifted him into the top tier of warlords but I wouldn't quite say as the top one (would say destruction of Yuan due to land power and symbolism). The clash started with Cao Cao as the highest ranked (bar Emperor) in all the land and charging Yuan Shao with faction and disloyalty. It ended with suddenly Yuan Shao wasn't disloyal, Cao Cao having to publicly demote himself to third highest rank, Yuan Shao getting the two highest ranks (that Cao Cao had to resign), an expanded enoffment, legitimacy for all his lands and some of the nine distinctions. That wasn't Cao Cao being powerful, that was Cao Cao forced to backtrack and being humiliated, while losing rank is sometimes wise politics but it is rarely a show of strength, usually to stem the damage.

Cao Cao getting made Governor of Yan rather then Inspector was a show of (relatively at the time) power, Cao Cao being forced to appease Yuan Shao, publicly acknowledge he was Yuan Shao's junior in rank and humiliate himself was not.

2) There was no Yuan envoy recorded off the top of my head after Liu Bei being sent. It really doesn't fit for me, Liu Bei sent envoys plenty of times, he sent letters (or had others do it) to get what he needed, he was willing to split his forces as situation required, I can't say Liu Bei has ever come across as a figure who was particularly insecure, let alone that he can't spare one officer to carry out a promise made.

Unless I'm misreading, you have been saying it wasn't Liu Bei's job to be the guy (or officer core/force) to contact Liu Biao but it was Yuan Shao's Liu Bei advise was to ally with the South. Not act as a diplomat. for example. But if it was, Liu Bei fulfilled by not doing it till after Liu Bei was directly attacked which you feel still counts.

Yes plenty of time. Not to go himself, that would have been a bad move, but to send an envoy or a letter.

Or the man who proposed it understood the geopolitical situation better than two internet guys more than a thousand years later and preferred to prioritise the domestic situation of Runan instead of coordinating with outside elements for the time being.


and broke a promise that the other warlord needed. For a task that wouldn't take up too much time (one or two letters to start things, which could be written by his staff, or assign an envoy) unless Liu Biao agreed.

Yuan Shao was a skilled warlord, bar political judgement, but he was not Cao Cao level. His lands were already being surrounded before Guandu, he was out-resourced and against a superior warlord, Guandu then compounds that. He (and had his sons been unified) could have provided a good resistance but it would be a defensive war and praying something broke their way


1) It was clear to everyone. Everytime someone petitioned the Han court for ranks and titles, they are esentially affirming his authority. Which was why Liu Bei sent back his marquis seal. Cao Cao never openly charged Yuan Shao to be disloyal AFAIK. Yes, Yuan Shao gained all that, thanks to Cao Cao's authority. Essentially the point I have been making but okay. Backtrack and slightly embarassed. Humiliate is a very strong word. Sure, but if you are demoting yourself from number one to like number four than its actually a show of strength.

Yeah sure. And him having the ability to make all these changes is simply power.

2) Exactly. Liu Bei never did all that when he was completely isolated AFAIK. Liu Bei may or may not be insecure, but he was without a doubt in an insecure position.

Im saying that Liu Bei had different prioirities and that he chose to prioritise different duties as according to his needs which isnt betrayal. Yeah it counts.

A risk that he was unwilling to take.

For the last time, he fulfilled his promise. Not immediately due to the geopolitical situation AND his other duties but eventually. He was not in a position to spare any men.(Envoys wasnt just one or two btw). He was completely isolated and surrounded at all sides, dealing with various enemies and allies.

Yes, he was not Cao Cao level. Not even Sima Yi or Liu Bei. But you dont need to be Cao Cao level to defeat Cao Cao. Zhang Xiu, Ma Chao, Lü Bu, Liu Bei and Sun Quan all did more with less against Cao Cao. And the opposite is also true. His lands were surrounding Cao Cao. Inferior warlords defeated Superior warlords all the time. Li Jue cabal vs Wang Yun, Lü Bu betrayals, Sun Ce takeover, Zhang Lu vs Liu Zhang. Guandu - as instrumental as it was was only one campaign. Yeah... and everyone was saying that about Sun Quan in 208 and Liu Bei in 212. What happened next was Sun Quan leading against the greatest chokefest and upset of the era and Liu Bei conquering Sichuan while being completely isolated. Forgive me for not arguing against Yuan Shao chances. The 3K era was filled with upsets. From the very very beginning. I will never count out a proven warlord with more provinces than two kingdoms(on paper).
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