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Re: Lu Bu or Liu Bei: who is the bigger traitor?

Unread postPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 7:36 am
by Ipoutonut
I think the two of them are not the same idea. But it was really difficult.

Re: Lu Bu or Liu Bei: who is the bigger traitor?

Unread postPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 1:39 pm
by Dong Zhou
Doing Yuan Shao analysis and two Liu Bei... job switches occur, feel my mood on both has become more negative.

1) Leaving Gongsun Zan's forces for Tao Qian. The argument usually is that it was from ally to ally, Tian Kai made no objection so Zan wouldn't have been too displeased. I suspect he was rather annoyed when Liu Bei took over and switched the province alliance to Yuan Shao. Practical as meant Cao Cao would have difficulty attacking but it was a betrayal of Gongsun Zan, this may well be a "he did the right thing to break that alliance" though.

2) Liu Bei leaving Yuan Shao. I had been sympathetic on this one till I reread it, the SGZ says Liu Bei was seeking to ditch Yuan Shao on the second trip to Runan and even if the SGZ is wrong, he did promise to reach out to Liu Biao as Yuan Shao (probably desperately) needed and didn't till after Yuan Shao's forces were defeated. That was dishonest of Liu Bei to make a pledge then break it and I'm not sure what good Liu Bei was doing by not carrying out his word.

Re: Lu Bu or Liu Bei: who is the bigger traitor?

Unread postPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 7:13 am
by DaoLunOfShiji
If I recall right Liu Bei's SGZ flatly states that he viewed Yuan Shao as a lost cause at that point, which isn't entirely wrong. If he really viewed Yuan Shao as hopeless at that point, it would've done him nor Fu Xuan's least favorite person ever any good to aid him in a failing war.

Re: Lu Bu or Liu Bei: who is the bigger traitor?

Unread postPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 11:46 am
by Dong Zhou
Crowell's translation has
Secretly he wanted to break away from Yuan Shao
rather then any explanation as to why. He may well have calculated Yuan Shao would lose but getting Liu Biao was his promise and might have changed things (though I think such an embassy would have failed, he could have tried)

Re: Lu Bu or Liu Bei: who is the bigger traitor?

Unread postPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 1:53 am
by Han
1) Leaving Gongsun Zan's forces for Tao Qian. The argument usually is that it was from ally to ally, Tian Kai made no objection so Zan wouldn't have been too displeased. I suspect he was rather annoyed when Liu Bei took over and switched the province alliance to Yuan Shao. Practical as meant Cao Cao would have difficulty attacking but it was a betrayal of Gongsun Zan, this may well be a "he did the right thing to break that alliance" though.

2) Liu Bei leaving Yuan Shao. I had been sympathetic on this one till I reread it, the SGZ says Liu Bei was seeking to ditch Yuan Shao on the second trip to Runan and even if the SGZ is wrong, he did promise to reach out to Liu Biao as Yuan Shao (probably desperately) needed and didn't till after Yuan Shao's forces were defeated. That was dishonest of Liu Bei to make a pledge then break it and I'm not sure what good Liu Bei was doing by not carrying out his word.


1) The switching alliance thing came only AFTER he succeeded Tao Qian. So the 'leave Gongsun Zan' move itself was NOT a betrayal. And switching alliances happened all the goddamn time. I dont consider it really a betrayal.

2) Except he eventually did try. So technically he didnt go back on his word. And the only reason why he didnt reach out Liu Biao earlier was because

Yuan Shao sent the Former Lord to lead his original troops back to Runan, where he allied with the rebel Xi Du 襲都 and others to form a body of several
thousand persons. Duke Cao sent Cai Yang 蔡陽 to attack him, but he was killed by the Former Lord.


Yuan Shao sent him back to RUNAN. And thus Liu Bei was busy allying with local bandits and was forced to deal with a military expedition. He was in no position to go all the way to Jing at that point.

And then Cao Cao rekt Yuan Shao who retreated all the way back to Ye accross the river making Liu Bei completely stranded and isolated with Cao Cao marching towards him in fury. So again, no position to ally until he retreated southwards.

If I recall right Liu Bei's SGZ flatly states that he viewed Yuan Shao as a lost cause at that point, which isn't entirely wrong. If he really viewed Yuan Shao as hopeless at that point, it would've done him nor Fu Xuan's least favorite person ever any good to aid him in a failing war.


Source?

Re: Lu Bu or Liu Bei: who is the bigger traitor?

Unread postPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 5:36 am
by DaoLunOfShiji
I said "if I recall", going off memory, and I was wrong about that. Dong mentioned specifically what the SGZ said.

Re: Lu Bu or Liu Bei: who is the bigger traitor?

Unread postPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 6:24 am
by Han
Oops. You are right. Apologies.

Re: Lu Bu or Liu Bei: who is the bigger traitor?

Unread postPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 3:05 pm
by Dong Zhou
1) Sure and Zan would have expected his former officer to keep alliance. Not to ally with the guy Zan was fighting desperately

2) Liu Bei doesn't have to go himself, very rare that lords actually undertook diplomatic efforts themselves, but he could have sent Sun Qian, Jian Yong to make the effort. Or letters though diplomat seems a better route. He didn't make any such move until Liu Bei was forced to seek sanctuary, not when Yuan Shao needed it.

Re: Lu Bu or Liu Bei: who is the bigger traitor?

Unread postPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2018 11:33 am
by Han
Dong Zhou wrote:1) Sure and Zan would have expected his former officer to keep alliance. Not to ally with the guy Zan was fighting desperately

2) Liu Bei doesn't have to go himself, very rare that lords actually undertook diplomatic efforts themselves, but he could have sent Sun Qian, Jian Yong to make the effort. Or letters though diplomat seems a better route. He didn't make any such move until Liu Bei was forced to seek sanctuary, not when Yuan Shao needed it.


1) From another point of view, Bei would have expect both Yuan and Gongsun to keep him out of a conflict he was no longer a part of since a year ago. Aka neutrality. Busy consolidating his succession and blah blah blah.

2) Or he could keep them to ensure communications with Yuan Shao would be ever open and immediately established if need be or/and use them as emissaries to his bandits warband and as personal advisors. I would argue that was when Yuan Shao needed it most. He was forced to retreat all the way back to his homebase while his rear operations had just ended in disastrous failure.

Re: Lu Bu or Liu Bei: who is the bigger traitor?

Unread postPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2018 2:04 pm
by Dong Zhou
1) I'm not sure that tends to be, particularly in a world of patronage, how warlords viewed officers turned warlords who then swing to the other side. It is an intresting view point, I do feel a year is a bit too soon personally to be void of such obligation in circumstances but agree to disagree

2) He needs all of them just in a case he might want to contact Yuan Shao? He can't spare one? If true, why make that promise in the first place?

Yuan Shao arguably (depending on if one buys the De Crespigny theory Guandu was a camapign of sheer desperation) really really really needed a southern ally to try to give his camapign real hope, a proper one rather then a local force. Liu Bei promised to try, didn't lift a finger to carry out that promise. However I'm not quite understanding the point your trying to make as to how Yuan Shao needed Liu Bei to not send envoy? Sorry