Lu Bu or Liu Bei: who is the bigger traitor?

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Re: Lu Bu or Liu Bei: who is the bigger traitor?

Unread postby mrbeate » Mon Sep 19, 2011 2:28 am

Guazabara wrote:Back to the topic, Is it that bad to believe that such a man exist? A man that would go through all that trouble just to protect the Han? and you said" I dont think", which means, your reply is an opinion and not a fact.

Rebel Tao Qian?, who entitled him rebel, Cao Cao ?


Well your opinion that Liu Bei is a loyalist is NOT a FACT. There's no evidence in historical texts that he was a Han loyalist, but we do have evidence and proof that Liu Bei was a warlord who worked on his own ambitions and goals.

Uhm No. Tao Qian supported Que Xuan a man who declared himself an Emperor. Tao Qian would later kill him off.
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Re: Lu Bu or Liu Bei: who is the bigger traitor?

Unread postby Guazabara » Mon Sep 19, 2011 2:33 am

mrbeate wrote:
Well your opinion that Liu Bei is a loyalist is NOT a FACT. There's no evidence in historical texts that he was a Han loyalist, but we do have evidence and proof that Liu Bei was a warlord who worked on his own ambitions and goals.

Uhm No. Tao Qian supported Que Xuan a man who declared himself an Emperor. Tao Qian would later kill him off.



So he just happens to join the fight against the yellows scarves because he wants to be all powerful? No signs of being a Han loyalist, the same with Dong Zhuo, he just happened to be there for his own gain. And we have some sort of diary that says I WANTED POWER?..well no, but then again, actions speak louder than words. You tell me which one I should believe?

Yeah Tao Qian, ...you said it... the rebel killed the man who delcared himself emperor... then why is he a rebel again??
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Re: Lu Bu or Liu Bei: who is the bigger traitor?

Unread postby mrbeate » Mon Sep 19, 2011 2:41 am

Guazabara wrote:So he just happens to join the fight against the yellows scarves because he wants to be all powerful? No signs of being a Han loyalist, the same with Dong Zhuo, he just happened to be there for his own gain. And we have some sort of diary that says I WANTED POWER?..well no, but then again, actions speak louder than words. You tell me which one I should believe?

Yeah Tao Qian, ...you said it... the rebel killed the man who delcared himself emperor... then why is he a rebel again??


Uhm. Liu Bei was a SANDAL WEAVER not much money making there. The Yellow Turban rebellion allowed opportunities for great fame and wealth. Many people made their names in the Yellow Turban Rebellion. Liu Bei claimed of his imperial lineage, which would probably helped him have greater chances of fame and promotions. We don't have no text that says " I LIU BEI LOVE THE HAN, AND EMPEROR XIAN, I WILL DO ANYTHING I CAN TO RESTORE IT." We do have texts of him CONQUERING the land, backstabbing and betrayal for his OWN gains. Not to mention that Liu Bei declared himself an Emperor less than a year after Xian was abdicated. Why was Liu Bei so quick to attain the throne? Did he even check if Xian was alive before sitting upon the imperial throne. Seems like Bei didn't give a rats ass bout Xian.
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Re: Lu Bu or Liu Bei: who is the bigger traitor?

Unread postby Qu Hui » Mon Sep 19, 2011 2:58 am

Guazabara wrote:So he just happens to join the fight against the yellows scarves because he wants to be all powerful? No signs of being a Han loyalist,

He joined the military for economic and power reasons, as mrbeate said, and it payed off since he was made a magistrate.

Guazabara wrote:the same with Dong Zhuo, he just happened to be there for his own gain.

Liu Bei never historically fought against Dong Zhuo.

Guazabara wrote:And we have some sort of diary that says I WANTED POWER?..well no, but then again, actions speak louder than words. You tell me which one I should believe?

His historical actions show that any love he had for the Han came long after he became a warlord. For Liu Bei, the Han was merely a tool to use when it was convenient for him.

Guazabara wrote: Yeah Tao Qian, ...you said it... the rebel killed the man who delcared himself emperor... then why is he a rebel again??

He initially supported said rebel emperor, and only killed the man to absorb his troops and not out of any loyalty to the Han.
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Re: Lu Bu or Liu Bei: who is the bigger traitor?

Unread postby Guazabara » Mon Sep 19, 2011 3:06 am

... Still bangin at the selfish Liu Bei door, well I tell you, There is no histrorical fact that he was for his own gain :D
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Re: Lu Bu or Liu Bei: who is the bigger traitor?

Unread postby mrbeate » Mon Sep 19, 2011 3:13 am

Guazabara wrote:... Still bangin at the selfish Liu Bei door, well I tell you, There is no histrorical fact that he was for his own gain :D


When Liu Bei was serving under Gongsun Zan, he left Zan's service to work under Tao Qian who offered him a few thousand troops.

When Lu Bu took Xu province and allowed Liu Bei to have Xiao Pei, Liu Bei back stabbed Lu Bu by allying with Cao Cao and waging war with Lu Bu.

Liu Bei then rebelled against Cao Cao and took Xu province and allied with Yuan Shao.

Liu Bei betrayed Liu Zhang by invading him in his own lands, why? Personal Gain.

All these are examples of Liu Bei's actions for his own gain.
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Re: Lu Bu or Liu Bei: who is the bigger traitor?

Unread postby Qu Hui » Mon Sep 19, 2011 3:15 am

Historical evidence supports Liu Bei as ambitious rather than Liu Bei as savior. As mrbeate has previously said, we have plenty of evidence from texts like the Zhizhi Tongjian and Sanguozhi of situations where Liu Bei betrayed his allies for his own gain and left the Han to fate while he expanded his territory. In fact, Liu Bei probably has the record for the most number of allies betrayed, having betrayed Sun Quan, Cao Cao, Yuan Shao, Liu Zhang, Gongsun Zan and Lu Bu.
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Re: Lu Bu or Liu Bei: who is the bigger traitor?

Unread postby Guazabara » Mon Sep 19, 2011 3:25 am

mrbeate wrote:
When Liu Bei was serving under Gongsun Zan, he left Zan's service to work under Tao Qian who offered him a few thousand troops.

When Lu Bu took Xu province and allowed Liu Bei to have Xiao Pei, Liu Bei back stabbed Lu Bu by allying with Cao Cao and waging war with Lu Bu.

Liu Bei then rebelled against Cao Cao and took Xu province and allied with Yuan Shao.

Liu Bei betrayed Liu Zhang by invading him in his own lands, why? Personal Gain.

All these are examples of Liu Bei's actions for his own gain.


1) Gongsun was not a someone you would want to serve if you wanted to support the Han or even in your views to gain power

2) Again for either point of view, to Support Lu Bu would get him knowhere

3) Didnt he get an imperial envoy of this?


4)He never actually allied with him, even if Kin. Liu Zhang was a inefective ruler, again for both points of view, he needed the province


These examples fall for any interpretation.
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Re: Lu Bu or Liu Bei: who is the bigger traitor?

Unread postby Qu Hui » Mon Sep 19, 2011 3:38 am

1) It doesn't matter, he still betrayed a close childhood friend for personal gain, which was the point of mrbeate's post.

2) Together, Lu Bu and Liu Bei might have had a sporting chance against Cao Cao. Infighting between them weakened them significantly.

3) If anything, this shows how ungrateful Liu Bei was towards Cao Cao, who had shown him great respect and even appointed him Imperial Inspector of Yuzhou.

4) Yes they were, which is why Liu Zhang allowed Liu Bei into Yi in the first place.
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Re: Lu Bu or Liu Bei: who is the bigger traitor?

Unread postby mrbeate » Mon Sep 19, 2011 3:42 am

Guazabara wrote:1) Gongsun was not a someone you would want to serve if you wanted to support the Han or even in your views to gain power


Then why didn't Liu Bei decline working with Gongsun Zan. Because Gongsun Zan held one of the biggest armies, and Bei was close friends with Zan. Zan offered protection and support from others when Liu Bei was still in a vulnerable state. But when an opportunity where Liu Bei can gain more power through troops, he took it.

Guazabara wrote:2) Again for either point of view, to Support Lu Bu would get him knowhere


You don't know that for sure. Lu Bu didn't allow Liu Bei to gain a large sum of troops in case Liu Bei wanted to rebel. Liu Bei did rebel seeing as he is being restricted under Lu Bu, where Cao Cao can offer more at the time. Cao Cao did give some troops to Liu Bei btw.

Guazabara wrote:3) Didnt he get an imperial envoy of this?


No he did not. But he did join a secret group to remove Cao Cao from power. Liu Bei didn't even do anything, he left the Capital and invaded Xu province while sheltering under Yuan Shao. Gain? Have his own land where Cao Cao wouldn't dictate him.

Guazabara wrote:4)He never actually allied with him, even if Kin. Liu Zhang was a inefective ruler, again for both points of view, he needed the province


Uh. He did ally with Liu Zhang. Liu Zhang had Liu Bei protect his northern borders from Zhang Lu and Cao Cao. Zhang even gave Liu Bei troops and supplies for this. Sounds like a pact/ or alliance to me. Why did he need the province? oh yeah PERSONAL GAIN, so he would have more land and resources to fulfill his goals as a warlord.
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