Lu Bu or Liu Bei: who is the bigger traitor?

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Lu Bu murderer.

Unread postby Iain » Tue Sep 30, 2003 1:06 am

Dian_Wei wrote:Lu Bu was ordered to kill Ding Yuan. If remember, Lu Bu wanted to go to Dong Zhuo and he was told to kill Ding Yuan, which was an order. Lu bu obediently obeyed his masters wish, besides if Bu hadn't killed him then he would have later.


In the book the following passage shows Lu Bu's decision.In conversation with Li Su sent by Dong Zhou to talk over Lu Bu.

"There is one service you can do, and an extremely easy one
to perform; but you would not render that."
Lu Bu pondered long in silence. Then he said, "I might slay
Ding Yuan and bring over his soldiers to Dong Zhou's side;
what think you of that?"
"If you would do that, there would be no greater service.
But such a thing must be done quickly."
And Lu Bu promised his friend that he would do the deed
and come over on the morrow.


Now compare this to when Cao Cao tried a similar trick to talk over Xu Huang using Man Chong as a able talker.
Xu Huang invited him in and they both sat down. Then said
Man Chong, "There are very few as bold as you on the earth;
why then do you serve such as your present chiefs? My master
is the most prominent man in the world, a man who delights
in wise men and appreciates soldiers as everyone knows.
Your valour today won his entire admiration and so he took
care that the attack was not vigorous to sacrifice you.
Now he has sent me to invite you to join him. Will you not
leave darkness for light and help him in his great task?"
Xu Huang sat for long time pondering over the offer. Then
he said, with a sigh, "I know my masters are doomed to failure,
but I have followed their fortunes a long time and do not like
to leave them."
"But you know the prudent bird selects its tree and the
wise servant chooses his master. When one meets a worthy
master and lets him go one is a fool."
"I am willing to do what you say," said Xu, rising.
"Why not put these two to death as an introductory gift?"
said Man.
"It is very wrong for a servant to slay his master. I will
not do that."
"True; you are really a good man."

The first example was a bully and a unloyal man who was easily manipulated the second was an intellegent man who didnt sell out his previous employers for a horse and a sack of gold.
Dian_Wei wrote: Also if you read closely enough Lu Bu had a mandate from the emperor to kill Dong Zhuo, which does not make it a betrayal does it.

Lu Bu never needed a mandate to kill anyone he had his mind made up what he was going to do to Dong Zhou shortly after the halberd incident.
Last edited by Iain on Wed Oct 01, 2003 2:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread postby Zhilong » Tue Sep 30, 2003 7:12 am

In the words of Cao Cao, it's better to wrong the world than be wronged by it. Why serve a weaker person who will undoubtedly be killed later on? Besides, by killing Ding Yuan Lu Bu broke his power base so he couldn't be a thorn in the side later on. Honorable? I'll admit that it wasn't an honorable act. But Lu Bu wasn't the only person to double-cross someone and kill them to serve someone more powerful.

That is fine, in accordance with the debate i only wish to argue he is a traitor, not the merits of it. Other people doing something dishonourable does not make an act honourable.

The sheer fact that Lu Bu would have been within his rights to execute Bei's family, and instead chose to spare them shows that they WERE in danger,

He WAS the danger.

he "saved' them by not choosing to kill them.

With this logic i am sure we can look forward to seeing robbers treated as heroes for "saving" (ie not killing) the people they rob.
If someone put a gun to your head and did not kill you, do you treat them as your saviour?

If I occupy your house while you're away and theoretically I could have your family killed, I'm saving their lives by choosing not to and choosing to treat them well.

For the record i do not give known psychopaths refuge in my home (and i am not referring to you). Theoretically and practically you would be mentally unstable if you thought you were saving them, when in fact you are the source of danger. Not to mention ungrateful and likely soon to be locked away.
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Re: Lu Bu murderer.

Unread postby Separation Anxiety » Wed Oct 01, 2003 9:27 pm

DynastyIain wrote:Lu Bu never needed a mandate to kill anyone he had his mind made up what he was going to do to Dong Zhou shortly after the halberd incident.


He didn't need the mandate, that is true, but he nevertheless had the mandate. There is no way possible that it can be argued that this is an act of betrayal because he was ordered to kill Dong Zhuo by the emperor.
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Re: Lu Bu murderer.

Unread postby Iain » Thu Oct 02, 2003 2:30 am

Dian_Wei wrote:
DynastyIain wrote:Lu Bu never needed a mandate to kill anyone he had his mind made up what he was going to do to Dong Zhou shortly after the halberd incident.


He didn't need the mandate, that is true, but he nevertheless had the mandate. There is no way possible that it can be argued that this is an act of betrayal because he was ordered to kill Dong Zhuo by the emperor.

That does not make him noble; just because he had a scrap of paper saying it is ok to murder someone today when he was intending to anyway, still shows how quickly his loyalties changed with his temper.
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Re: Lu Bu murderer.

Unread postby Separation Anxiety » Thu Oct 02, 2003 9:38 pm

DynastyIain wrote:
Dian_Wei wrote:
DynastyIain wrote:Lu Bu never needed a mandate to kill anyone he had his mind made up what he was going to do to Dong Zhou shortly after the halberd incident.


He didn't need the mandate, that is true, but he nevertheless had the mandate. There is no way possible that it can be argued that this is an act of betrayal because he was ordered to kill Dong Zhuo by the emperor.

That does not make him noble; just because he had a scrap of paper saying it is ok to murder someone today when he was intending to anyway, still shows how quickly his loyalties changed with his temper.


it didn't make it ok to kill him, but it did justify Lu Bus actions. The paper didn't say it was ok to kill Dong Zhuo, i t was a direct order from the emperor to kill Dong Zhuo. That is what a mandate is, an order from the emperor. Sure Lu Bu wanted to kill Dong Zhuo, but he only did so when he was ordered to kill him by the emperor. And if u want to go at it this way then Liu Bei was not justified in trying to kill Cao Cao, even though there was a secret mandate to punish Cao Cao. But that is only if we go on your screwed up logic. You basically are sayin that if someone commits horrible crimes against his government he should not be punished.
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Re: Lu Bu murderer.

Unread postby Jon » Thu Oct 02, 2003 10:21 pm

I am returning to the arguement because of this.
Dian_Wei wrote:
it didn't make it ok to kill him, but it did justify Lu Bus actions.
Do you realize you just contradicted yourself? It did make it okay to kill him but it didn't justify his reasons for his actions.
The paper didn't say it was ok to kill Dong Zhuo, i t was a direct order from the emperor to kill Dong Zhuo. That is what a mandate is, an order from the emperor.
That's true.
Sure Lu Bu wanted to kill Dong Zhuo, but he only did so when he was ordered to kill him by the emperor.
It is likely he would have done so anyway.
And if u want to go at it this way then Liu Bei was not justified in trying to kill Cao Cao, even though there was a secret mandate to punish Cao Cao.
His actions would be justified, not his reasons.
But that is only if we go on your screwed up logic.
It's his opinion. Look over your logic before you call someone elses' screwed up.
You basically are sayin that if someone commits horrible crimes against his government he should not be punished.
No, he isn't. I don't know where you got that.
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Unread postby Separation Anxiety » Fri Oct 03, 2003 12:13 am

what i meant by "it didnt make it ok, but it did it justify his actions" was that it was wrong but he had a reason to do it, I didn't mean for it to sound like a contradiction.

Also i would much rather see the DynastyIain standing up for himself rather than someone else.
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Unread postby Lady Zhuge » Fri Oct 03, 2003 2:17 am

Dian_Wei wrote:Also i would much rather see the DynastyIain standing up for himself rather than someone else.


If your points are flawed or debatable, anyone is free to jump in with their thoughts and/or counterarguments. After all, the subject is still the same.
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Unread postby Iain » Fri Oct 03, 2003 4:56 am

Dian_Wei wrote:
Also i would much rather see the DynastyIain standing up for himself rather than someone else.

And I am here; Standing even.
Sorry Dian_Wei but I dont get home from work here on the West coast till hours after your posts, and as you were informed the discussion is open to anyone with an opinion not just you and myself.
Lu Bu was manipulated into killing Dong Zhou by Wang Yun the entire chain scheme was started by Wang Yun and the Emperor's mandate was obtained by Wang Yun. Sounds to me like the Emperor just made Wang Yun's plans official(and I hardly think he be against such a plot)
Lu Bu wasnt just following orders that day.
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Unread postby Separation Anxiety » Tue Oct 07, 2003 3:42 am

No matter how you cut it Lu Bu was going to kill Dong Zhuo, i dont deny that fact. I am trying to say that he had to when he got the decree from the emperor. If he didnt kill Dong Zhuo, then he would be labelled a traitor.
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