Lu Bu or Liu Bei: who is the bigger traitor?

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Unread postby Lady Zhuge » Sun Sep 28, 2003 4:38 am

TheGreatNads wrote:When did anyone in that time consider their daughter's future? :roll:


My point was that that incident doesn't prove how Lu Bu treated his children any better than Liu Bei treated his since his wanting to marry his daughter to Yuan Shu's son was to further himself and not necessarily for her sake(though her having a good prospective future would have been a bonus) and your bringing up this question just helps to prove my point. Never did I say his doing this makes him worse than Liu Bei, but it certainly doesn't make him better either. :roll:
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Unread postby Zhilong » Sun Sep 28, 2003 6:59 pm

Well, if you base on this source, it seem like Lu Bu was quite good at literacy, he used the example where Huan Gong free Guan Zhong* to persuade Cao Cao let him free. IMO, at least he knew something about Chun Qiu (Spring/Autumn period) and maybe read some of the books too like Zuo Shi Chun Qiu (左氏春秋) etc.

Seems like he did his homework and was prepared! :lol:

Btw, which sources do you guys prefer? Liu Bei was a 'bad guy' or the bad guy name given to Wang Bi?
The real bad guy would be Lu Bu himself. :evil:

Sure enough they made a pact to be as father and son, but did Dong honour this pact when he threw the lance at Lu Bu for no reason? Surely Lu Bu can be excused for not playing his part as a son after this incident -- there was no more father-son tie to be betrayed.
Even if he does not consider Dong his father anymore he is still his lord. And that tie still stood to be betrayed.

Compounded with the fact that killing Dong Zhuo was for a good cause, Lu Bu's "betraying" of Dong can be excused.
The killing of Dong is to be celebrated. But is Lu Bu's act a sudden selfless and noble act. Did he suddenly realise what a tyrant he was and wanted to save the people? I doubt it. I don't see how it can excuse his dishonorable act especially if we view his record as a whole since there is not much to indicate any sustained country saving.

So Lu Bu's taking over Xuzhou may have been a breach of trust, but it was better for the people there!
:shock: So he was in fact saving the people? I doubt it. All that would require is the removal of Zhang Fei and supervise the situation if things were indeed that bad. Then he can leave when Liu Bei returns. That would prove he did it just to save the people. His later warlord actions lends little credence that his acts were to save the people.

Lu Bu even treated Liu Bei's family, his captives, very well (whether he had ulterior motives is irrelevant), and returned them promptly when Liu Bei came for them.
Whether one has ulterior motives is very relevant. To disregard that would be far too convenient for your argument i am afraid. I'm sorry but i can agree with all this disregard this, wipe away that, cancel out that....

Considering also the fact that Lu Bu did return a piece of land to Liu Bei
What he should be returning is all, not a piece. Give refuge to a homeless person. Come back home and find it has been taken over and then he kindly lets you stay in the garage. Who could ask for a better friend than that? :roll:

Lu Bu is wiiling to risk his career and may be life for Diao Chan..
I wonder if he was single prior to meeting Diao Chan. If not i wonder what happened to those wives and if he risked anything for them. If not why does he do it soley for Diao Chan?

all those traitorous things he done have always be instigated by someone..
I wonder if that kind of logic would stand up in court... The person who makes the decision and commits the act is the person who is ultimately responsible. To blame everyone under the sun other than yourself is just immature and not befitting of a man. It is the realm of kids in the playground. If we used this logic then suddenly Liu Bei would be cleared of betraying Liu Zhang too.

He killed the biggest traitor of them all (Dong Zhuo), and what good did it do to him? He got chased out of the capital. He was the object of constant plotting-against, among Cao Cao, Yuan Shu, and Liu Bei.
And when Lu Bu is down and out who is it that gives him help & refuge? Liu Bei. How does Lu Bu betray the person who helps him in his time of dire straits?
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Unread postby Separation Anxiety » Sun Sep 28, 2003 7:06 pm

Zhilong wrote:
all those traitorous things he done have always be instigated by someone..
I wonder if that kind of logic would stand up in court... The person who makes the decision and commits the act is the person who is ultimately responsible. To blame everyone under the sun other than yourself is just immature and not befitting of a man.


Ever heard of Charles Manson. He decided for all those people in his cult to kill all those people, now look at whose still in jail. the people that committed the murders are out and free now while mason is still rotting in his jail cell. So that kind of logic does hold up in court.
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Unread postby Zhilong » Sun Sep 28, 2003 7:16 pm

Then without knowing the details of it all i would have to say that unless there was some evidence of mind control or brain-washing etc present then that decision is wrong. If this Charles told these ppl to kill others and they just listened to him then they would be the criminals. I think there are might be some tenuating circumstances in this case otherwise those ppl cannot be excused. I think it would be unlikely that those people could be deemed completely innocent without some special factors.

Conversely is there evidence of Lu Bu being retarded, mind controlled or brainwashed?
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Unread postby Separation Anxiety » Mon Sep 29, 2003 12:13 am

I never said that they were completely innocent, in fact i said that were in jail, but you cant punish those who are basically forced to do some one elses bidding. Lu Bu was convinced by someone else that what he was doing is right. You cant punish him for doing that.

I still need some explaining as to why Lu Bu is considered a huge traitor for killing two people, one of which is Dong Zhuo. And when he killed Ding Yuan, he had become a vassal of Dong Zhuo, so he was obliged to follow his lieges orders. While Liu Bei betrayed many more people, and killed Lu Bu in spite of Lu Bu saving him from war and protecting his family after Liu abandoned them.
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Unread postby Lady Zhuge » Mon Sep 29, 2003 12:21 am

Dian_Wei wrote:I never said that they were completely innocent, in fact i said that were in jail, but you cant punish those who are basically forced to do some one elses bidding. Lu Bu was convinced by someone else that what he was doing is right. You cant punish him for doing that.


Being convinced and being forced are not the same things.
And using your logic, Liu Bei was only doing what he felt was right. You can't blame him for that. We'll just conveniently disregard the fact that what he felt was right was for the good of furthering himself. :roll:
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Unread postby Zhilong » Mon Sep 29, 2003 12:36 am

I never said that they were completely innocent, in fact i said that were in jail, but you cant punish those who are basically forced to do some one elses bidding.
Most of those involved in the Charlie Manson case were given life sentences. It is hard to acertain exactly how much mind control there was in those cases but i think the sentences they received speaks volumes.

Lu Bu was convinced by someone else that what he was doing is right. You cant punish him for doing that.
Since you say he was "convinced" i take it you believe there was no mind control or brain washing involved. In light of the Manson case sentencing don't you think Lu Bu is EVEN more culpable?

And when he killed Ding Yuan, he had become a vassal of Dong Zhuo, so he was obliged to follow his lieges orders.
He was a vassal of in Ding Yuan. He sees a more powerful lord and thus he kills Ding Yuan to go serve his new master. Betraying his lord is not enough, he must also kill him. Is that the honourable act of a hero?

While Liu Bei betrayed many more people, and killed Lu Bu in spite of Lu Bu saving him from war and protecting his family after Liu abandoned them.

Cao Cao killed Lu Bu. Lu Bu was homeless and goes to Xuzhou to seek refuge with Liu Bei. Liu Bei gives him a place to stay. Liu Bei goes away for while. Comes back... Lu Bu has taken over his territory. Is that what you called gratitude? If he had killed the family of the man who gave him shelter and who's land he just stole as well then he'd be breaking his own backstabbing record.

The family was not abandoned by Liu Bei. They were living in Xuzhou. I do not recall them being in any danger which required Lu Bu to save them. Do you?
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Unread postby waynethegame » Mon Sep 29, 2003 7:24 pm

Most of those involved in the Charlie Manson case were given life sentences. It is hard to acertain exactly how much mind control there was in those cases but i think the sentences they received speaks volumes.


Yes, it shows the stupidity of the legal system and how the term "justice" is a crock of BS.

Since you say he was "convinced" i take it you believe there was no mind control or brain washing involved. In light of the Manson case sentencing don't you think Lu Bu is EVEN more culpable?


See above.

He was a vassal of in Ding Yuan. He sees a more powerful lord and thus he kills Ding Yuan to go serve his new master. Betraying his lord is not enough, he must also kill him. Is that the honourable act of a hero?


In the words of Cao Cao, it's better to wrong the world than be wronged by it. Why serve a weaker person who will undoubtedly be killed later on? Besides, by killing Ding Yuan Lu Bu broke his power base so he couldn't be a thorn in the side later on. Honorable? I'll admit that it wasn't an honorable act. But Lu Bu wasn't the only person to double-cross someone and kill them to serve someone more powerful. *cough* Wei Yan *cough*

Cao Cao killed Lu Bu. Lu Bu was homeless and goes to Xuzhou to seek refuge with Liu Bei. Liu Bei gives him a place to stay. Liu Bei goes away for while. Comes back... Lu Bu has taken over his territory. Is that what you called gratitude? If he had killed the family of the man who gave him shelter and who's land he just stole as well then he'd be breaking his own backstabbing record.


This I have to agree on, but see below.

The family was not abandoned by Liu Bei. They were living in Xuzhou. I do not recall them being in any danger which required Lu Bu to save them. Do you?


The sheer fact that Lu Bu would have been within his rights to execute Bei's family, and instead chose to spare them shows that they WERE in danger, and he "saved' them by not choosing to kill them. If I occupy your house while you're away and theoretically I could have your family killed, I'm saving their lives by choosing not to and choosing to treat them well.
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Unread postby Separation Anxiety » Mon Sep 29, 2003 9:41 pm

Lu Bu was ordered to kill Ding Yuan. If remember, Lu Bu wanted to go to Dong Zhuo and he was told to kill Ding Yuan, which was an order. Lu bu obediently obeyed his masters wish, besides if Bu hadn't killed him then he would have later. And as for Dong Zhuo he was convinced by everyone around him that Dong Zhuo had betrayed him by stealing his woman and throwing a halberd at him. Also if you read closely enough Lu Bu had a mandate from the emperor to kill Dong Zhuo, which does not make it a betrayal does it.
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Unread postby Lady Zhuge » Mon Sep 29, 2003 10:33 pm

Dian_Wei wrote:Lu Bu was ordered to kill Ding Yuan. If remember, Lu Bu wanted to go to Dong Zhuo and he was told to kill Ding Yuan, which was an order. Lu bu obediently obeyed his masters wish, besides if Bu hadn't killed him then he would have later. And as for Dong Zhuo he was convinced by everyone around him that Dong Zhuo had betrayed him by stealing his woman and throwing a halberd at him. Also if you read closely enough Lu Bu had a mandate from the emperor to kill Dong Zhuo, which does not make it a betrayal does it.


Your rationalization of Lu Bu's treachery conveniently ignores the fact that no one forced Lu Bu to backstab Ding Yuan to go and work for Dong Zhuo in the first place. That was his decision. And why did Lu Bu choose to do so? It was for none other than selfish gains and to further himself. It's irrelevant what Dong Zhuo told/ordered Lu Bu to do afterwards, since Lu Bu had already betrayed Ding Yuan at that point. Killing him was just another strike against him.
Last edited by Lady Zhuge on Tue Sep 30, 2003 1:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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