Lu Bu or Liu Bei: who is the bigger traitor?

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Unread postby Lady Zhuge » Fri Sep 26, 2003 2:05 pm

GuangRong wrote:Even if we're talking about the Novel,

on the personal front,
you can see tha Lu Bu is "better" person than Liu Bei in many ways...
juz look at the way the 2 treat their wives and children..

Lu Bu is wiiling to risk his career and may be life for Diao Chan..

while Liu bei , may times in the novel showed that he care more about his good name and career than his family's life or the greater good..



Lu Bu was good to Diao Chan because he was moved by her beauty. The two of them were never married either, so that doesn't prove how Lu Bu treated his wives and children better than Liu Bei treated his. Also, if I remember correctly, Lu Bu used the idea of marrying his daughter off to Yuan Shu's son(well, tried to send her, but the plan fell through) so that he himself could receive Yuan Shu's aid.

GuangRong wrote:Lu Bu main fault is that he's greedy and abit naive..., all those traitorous things he done have always be instigated by someone..


Yes, but if he was a better, smarter, and internally stronger person, he would not have been so easily instigated by others.
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Unread postby Mengdez New Book » Fri Sep 26, 2003 5:47 pm

Lady Zhuge wrote:Lu Bu was good to Diao Chan because he was moved by her beauty. The two of them were never married either, so that doesn't prove how Lu Bu treated his wives and children better than Liu Bei treated his. Also, if I remember correctly, Lu Bu used the idea of marrying his daughter off to Yuan Shu's son(well, tried to send her, but the plan fell through) so that he himself could receive Yuan Shu's aid.

At least Lu Bu didn't abandon his wife as many times as Liu Bei did. :?
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Unread postby heli0gabalus » Fri Sep 26, 2003 6:09 pm

didn't liu bei say at some point that family (wives, kids, etc.) are only garments whereas brothers are limbs? in the modern standpoint, liu bei's leaving his family is somewhat despicable. however, in order to remain alive to fulfill his duty to the han as well as the peach garden oath, running off with his tail between his legs usually was the more admirable and smart thing to do.

there seems to be a lot of rules that supersede others in sgyy. his conservative cause of restoring the han superseded his "betrayals" of yuan shao, cao cao, and liu zhang. whereas lu bu betrayed ding yuan because of personal reasons (not to mention red hare and li ru's praising of this mysterious, better person), dong zhuo over a girl (it's not like he tried to find out what was really going on), and liu bei over cao bao's beating by zhang fei. i think because of this lu bu was the bigger traitor, much worse than liu bei.
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Unread postby Lady Wu » Fri Sep 26, 2003 6:13 pm

Mengdez New Book wrote:At least Lu Bu didn't abandon his wife as many times as Liu Bei did. :?

Right on. And since the topic is on whether they betrayed people, I would add that Liu Bei betrayed the trust of his family as well. Note that Lu Bu's daughter, if married to Yuan Shu's son, had a chance of being empress (if Yuan Shu's plan went through). Not too bad of a prospect for a girl!
Lady Zhuge wrote:Yes, but if he was a better, smarter, and internally stronger person, he would not have been so easily instigated by others.
Which makes the bigger traitor, someone who had no seditious thoughts, but got tricked into seditious deeds unwittingly, or someone who has ambition, betrays people for his own ends, and then cover up the act by providing excuses for himself? :?
DynastyIain wrote:I think is is easier to act benevolent from a position of power (As Lu Bu was)than in a harrased pursued position(which Lui Bei definitely was)any deeds that were done by desperate armies are not always the acts of evil.

Liu Bei enjoyed respect and relative peace during his stay with Cao Cao, in Xuzhou, with Yuan Shao, Liu Bei, etc. Lu Bu was the one who's always pursued. He killed the biggest traitor of them all (Dong Zhuo), and what good did it do to him? He got chased out of the capital. He was the object of constant plotting-against, among Cao Cao, Yuan Shu, and Liu Bei.
also feel that Lui Bei was a fairly good ruler to his people but his brother Zhang Fei was not a man to leave in charge for too long and that was just bad timeing with Lu Bu's relative, had Lui Bei left Guan Yu to watch over things while he was gone Lu Bu wouldnt have had a chance to charge in and take over.

Then Liu Bei made a mistake, and didn't do the best to protect his people.
That take over was Lu Bu doing what he did best, bullying

Who else did he bully?
Spareing Lui Bei's family was just his way of saying 'now you owe me one' and takeing the town off him was simple expansioism,

Yes, I agree that he had ulterior motives for keeping Liu Bei's family safe, and giving Liu Bei some land back. But that's a lot better than what most others did to captured people and land. Furthermore, how can you blame him for expansionism when everyone else was expanding left right and centre? Lu Bu was just looking for a foothold. Others were looking to take over the country.
he had designs on Cao Cao's empire too when his back was turned.
Again, I see nothing wrong with this. He was not in an alliance relationship with Cao Cao, therefore this designing cannot be counted as betrayal.
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Unread postby Lady Zhuge » Fri Sep 26, 2003 6:45 pm

Mengdez New Book wrote:At least Lu Bu didn't abandon his wife as many times as Liu Bei did. :?


This is true.

Lady Wu wrote:Right on. And since the topic is on whether they betrayed people, I would add that Liu Bei betrayed the trust of his family as well. Note that Lu Bu's daughter, if married to Yuan Shu's son, had a chance of being empress (if Yuan Shu's plan went through). Not too bad of a prospect for a girl!


But Lu Bu was just using his daughter as leverage for his own prospects. The fact that his daughter could possibly have ended up in a good position was just a bonus. Who knows if Lu Bu actually stopped to consider his daughter's future in that decision?

Lady Wu wrote:Which makes the bigger traitor, someone who had no seditious thoughts, but got tricked into seditious deeds unwittingly, or someone who has ambition, betrays people for his own ends, and then cover up the act by providing excuses for himself? :?


Lu Bu allowed himself to be tricked. He didn't have to kill his supposed "father" Ding Yuan, did he? And why did he do it? For what he thought would be more riches and higher prospects for himself. He is no less of a traitor just because one can try and excuse his acts by pinning the blame on other people tricking him and his being rather stupid in his rationales.
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Unread postby Danktrees » Fri Sep 26, 2003 6:49 pm

liu bei was contending for the empire so it was reasonable for him to abandon his family. in fact it's expected. cao cao did the same thing and i respect him for it.

lu bu told chen gong to read liu bei's letter to cao cao cuz he was illiterate.

cao cao never harmed liu bei but he always tried to find away to kill him. he had no justification and had he done it, he would have been labelled a treacherous person so he kept finding a way to kill liu bei. but liu bei was aware and was on his guard the whole time and left as soon as he had the chance.

as for his betrayal of the emperor, there wasnt much he could do at the time. he obviously needed to get an army before he could challenge cao cao. which was what he did...but then he died so the decree wasnt fulfilled. when he died he told zhuge to punish the "traitors" as in wei. so his aim was still wei at the time of his death.
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Unread postby Separation Anxiety » Fri Sep 26, 2003 11:10 pm

Danktrees wrote:liu bei was contending for the empire so it was reasonable for him to abandon his family. in fact it's expected. cao cao did the same thing and i respect him for it.

lu bu told chen gong to read liu bei's letter to cao cao cuz he was illiterate.

cao cao never harmed liu bei but he always tried to find away to kill him. he had no justification and had he done it, he would have been labelled a treacherous person so he kept finding a way to kill liu bei. but liu bei was aware and was on his guard the whole time and left as soon as he had the chance.

as for his betrayal of the emperor, there wasnt much he could do at the time. he obviously needed to get an army before he could challenge cao cao. which was what he did...but then he died so the decree wasnt fulfilled. when he died he told zhuge to punish the "traitors" as in wei. so his aim was still wei at the time of his death.


First of all Cao Cao left his family, but he told his family he was leaving he didn't abandon them. Alos Cao Cao was already labelled a treacherous person because of the hunting incident, so it would hurt to get rid of Liu Bei and keep his acts of betrayal from depriving the world of a great general.

Also, i have to say that Lady Wu has had the best posts in this topic. Everything she has said is completely backed up with solid evidence. It is just brilliant the way she explained it so you cant argue against it because it is fact. Great job Lady Wu
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Unread postby Iain » Sat Sep 27, 2003 2:03 am

Lady Wu wrote:Liu Bei enjoyed respect and relative peace during his stay with Cao Cao, in Xuzhou,

Really, I rather got the impression he was afraid to do anything and could not wait to escape in case his part in the plot against Cao Cao was discovered, he nearly jumped out of his skin when Cao suggested that they were both heroes of the day and how long till Guan Yu chopped up Cao Cao for disrespect to the Emperor? No that was a very tense stay for Lui Bei and when he left he was pursued by some of Cao Cao's men ordered to stop him.
Lady Wu wrote: with Yuan Shao, Liu Bei, etc. Lu Bu was the one who's always pursued. He killed the biggest traitor of them all (Dong Zhuo), and what good did it do to him? He got chased out of the capital. He was the object of constant plotting-against, among Cao Cao, Yuan Shu, and Liu Bei.

Lu Bu did kill Dong Zhou yes, but if he just stood there Dong would have been just as dead there were a lot of people surrounding Dong and none of them appeared to like him very much. Bu sticks his halbred in Dongs neck and then everyone else cuts Dong up, I think Dong Zhou's time had came and Bu changed sides just in time, because a upriseing was ready.
And lets say you are a willing ally to mass murder for a number of years and at the last minute as the game is up you kill your ally does that wipe out all the harm you did as his willing henchman? No wonder everyone was after him he was too powerful to let loose.
Lady Wu wrote:Then Liu Bei made a mistake, and didn't do the best to protect his people.

You are quite correct here Lady Wu, I was just wondering if Guan Yu would have been a better choice than Zhang Fei to watch the town.
Lady Wu wrote:Who else did he bully?

Once again I stand corrected I was assumeing his rampageing around pushing around Cao Cao and Lui Bei would count as bullying.
he had designs on Cao Cao's empire when his back was turned.
Lady Wu wrote:Again, I see nothing wrong with this. He was not in an alliance relationship with Cao Cao, therefore this designing cannot be counted as betrayal.

Betrayal takes many forms, living next to someone who never bothers you but the moment they are gone you take their possessions is a betrayal of trust. There was no act of war Lu Bu just saw the chance to nab some territory and took it while Cao Cao's back was turned.
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Unread postby GuangRong » Sat Sep 27, 2003 4:46 am

DynastyIain wrote:Lu Bu did kill Dong Zhou yes, but if he just stood there Dong would have been just as dead there were a lot of people surrounding Dong and none of them appeared to like him very much. Bu sticks his halbred in Dongs neck and then everyone else cuts Dong up, I think Dong Zhou's time had came and Bu changed sides just in time, because a upriseing was ready.
And lets say you are a willing ally to mass murder for a number of years and at the last minute as the game is up you kill your ally does that wipe out all the harm you did as his willing henchman? No wonder everyone was after him he was too powerful to let loose.

Nope, it would very difficult to Kill Dong ZHou without Lu Bu
as long as Lu Bu is on Dong Zhou's side , no one would dare attack Dong ZHou.
Besides Dong Zhou would be on guard against assinations ,he knows pple wants his head (esp after Cao Cao's attempt)
add to the fact that he's a big man, who else but Lu Bu could have done it ?
Like you said everyone else cuts up Dongzhou AFTER Lu Bu has done the deed, had Lu Bu fail ,do you think anyone would dare to follow up ?

==
apparently Liu Bei think Lu Bu is worth the risk..
why would he take in Lu Bu in the first place himself, could easily have dismssed Lu bu on the ground of what he to Ding Yuan and Dong Zhou .,
but he didn't ..
Lu Bu rebel b'cos Liu Bei is too light weight to contain him in the first place, and that Zhang Fei indiscretion only give him the excuse to..

Bah.. smell like sour grapes on part of Liu Bei..
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Unread postby TheGreatNads » Sun Sep 28, 2003 2:42 am

Lady Zhuge wrote:But Lu Bu was just using his daughter as leverage for his own prospects. The fact that his daughter could possibly have ended up in a good position was just a bonus. Who knows if Lu Bu actually stopped to consider his daughter's future in that decision?


When did anyone in that time consider their daughter's future? :roll:
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