Lu Bu or Liu Bei: who is the bigger traitor?

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Re: Lu Bu or Liu Bei: who is the bigger traitor?

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Mon Sep 19, 2011 10:16 am

Guazabara wrote:
Back to the topic, Is it that bad to believe that such a man exist? A man that would go through all that trouble just to protect the Han? and you said" I dont think", which means, your reply is an opinion and not a fact.

Rebel Tao Qian?, who entitled him rebel, Cao Cao ?


I believe such a man existed. His name was Liu Yu.
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Re: Lu Bu or Liu Bei: who is the bigger traitor?

Unread postby Mestre Will » Tue Sep 20, 2011 3:00 am

Dont forget that man who help the emperor flee , i think is Dong Zhao dont ?

He help he flee , then later become the man that receive the order to kill Cao Cao from the emperor.But he get killed in the end. :(

And He Jin who want kill the eunuchs to stop the problems in Han.Also killed by his targets. :(

Liu bei simple dont like be under someone , not like Lubu who when lose Chang An go try join Yuan Shu ,who dint want him , and then Yuan Shao , who after some time try kill Lubu , then the no-banner Lubus go south to flee from Yuan Shao influence comes near Pu Yuang were Cheng Gong rebel against Cao Cao and help/invite Lubu to take Pu Yang , later in Liu bei place also Lubu has been "invited" to take the city.

For me Cheng Gong is a big traitor than Lubu , he also try a coup against Lubu after some time he get Xu, but Lubu forgive him.
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Re: Lu Bu or Liu Bei: who is the bigger traitor?

Unread postby mrbeate » Tue Sep 20, 2011 4:09 am

Mestre Will wrote:Dont forget that man who help the emperor flee , i think is Dong Zhao dont ?


Dong Cheng. Him, Jia Xu, and Yang Feng aided the Emperor.
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Re: Lu Bu or Liu Bei: who is the bigger traitor?

Unread postby Striga » Sun Oct 30, 2011 10:53 pm

I'd say Lu Bu, although Liu Bei did much more damage. In his mind, it was protecting the Han dynasty. After all, he did name his dynasty Shu-Han.
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Re: Lu Bu or Liu Bei: who is the bigger traitor?

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Mon Oct 31, 2011 7:40 am

Actually I believe he just called it Han, history calls it Shu-Han to differentiate from other Hans. Besides, I don't think the name needs to reflect anything of his mind, you could argue it shows his love for the Han, others could argue he did becuase he thought it was politically expedient
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Re: Lu Bu or Liu Bei: who is the bigger traitor?

Unread postby Shen Ai » Fri Nov 04, 2011 3:06 pm

You could call Cao Pi a traitor to the Han as he was the first with enough stones to depose that poster boy they called an emperor.

I would say Lu Bu was a worse man in some regards, but Liu Bei did betray quite a few people, including his allies Wu when Wu pretty much fought with all their might for Jing, and then Liu Bei 'borrows' it. Liu Zheng, that was also bad.
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Re: Lu Bu or Liu Bei: who is the bigger traitor?

Unread postby Striga » Fri Nov 04, 2011 7:54 pm

The emperor was nothing already. Cao Pi did it to secure his position, because unlike Cao Cao, he was not as respected.
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Re: Lu Bu or Liu Bei: who is the bigger traitor?

Unread postby Shen Ai » Fri Nov 04, 2011 8:12 pm

The Han was nothing a long time ago, but you can still betray it by usurping it. I admire Cao Pi for have the gall to do that, but he was still a traitor, just as Cao Cao was a traitor to the Han for capturing the emperor.
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Re: Lu Bu or Liu Bei: who is the bigger traitor?

Unread postby Striga » Fri Nov 04, 2011 8:15 pm

Technically, he saved the Emperor, and then used him as a puppet.
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Re: Lu Bu or Liu Bei: who is the bigger traitor?

Unread postby Shen Ai » Fri Nov 04, 2011 8:22 pm

Liu Bei and some other idiots saw it as betrayal for not restoring his power. Personally, the Han had burned out by then.
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