Lu Bu or Liu Bei: who is the bigger traitor?

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Re: Lu Bu or Liu Bei: who is the bigger traitor?

Unread postby Ipoutonut » Mon Dec 18, 2017 7:36 am

I think the two of them are not the same idea. But it was really difficult.
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Re: Lu Bu or Liu Bei: who is the bigger traitor?

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Sat Dec 15, 2018 1:39 pm

Doing Yuan Shao analysis and two Liu Bei... job switches occur, feel my mood on both has become more negative.

1) Leaving Gongsun Zan's forces for Tao Qian. The argument usually is that it was from ally to ally, Tian Kai made no objection so Zan wouldn't have been too displeased. I suspect he was rather annoyed when Liu Bei took over and switched the province alliance to Yuan Shao. Practical as meant Cao Cao would have difficulty attacking but it was a betrayal of Gongsun Zan, this may well be a "he did the right thing to break that alliance" though.

2) Liu Bei leaving Yuan Shao. I had been sympathetic on this one till I reread it, the SGZ says Liu Bei was seeking to ditch Yuan Shao on the second trip to Runan and even if the SGZ is wrong, he did promise to reach out to Liu Biao as Yuan Shao (probably desperately) needed and didn't till after Yuan Shao's forces were defeated. That was dishonest of Liu Bei to make a pledge then break it and I'm not sure what good Liu Bei was doing by not carrying out his word.
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Re: Lu Bu or Liu Bei: who is the bigger traitor?

Unread postby DaoLunOfShiji » Sun Dec 16, 2018 7:13 am

If I recall right Liu Bei's SGZ flatly states that he viewed Yuan Shao as a lost cause at that point, which isn't entirely wrong. If he really viewed Yuan Shao as hopeless at that point, it would've done him nor Fu Xuan's least favorite person ever any good to aid him in a failing war.
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Re: Lu Bu or Liu Bei: who is the bigger traitor?

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Sun Dec 16, 2018 11:46 am

Crowell's translation has
Secretly he wanted to break away from Yuan Shao
rather then any explanation as to why. He may well have calculated Yuan Shao would lose but getting Liu Biao was his promise and might have changed things (though I think such an embassy would have failed, he could have tried)
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Re: Lu Bu or Liu Bei: who is the bigger traitor?

Unread postby Han » Wed Dec 19, 2018 1:53 am

1) Leaving Gongsun Zan's forces for Tao Qian. The argument usually is that it was from ally to ally, Tian Kai made no objection so Zan wouldn't have been too displeased. I suspect he was rather annoyed when Liu Bei took over and switched the province alliance to Yuan Shao. Practical as meant Cao Cao would have difficulty attacking but it was a betrayal of Gongsun Zan, this may well be a "he did the right thing to break that alliance" though.

2) Liu Bei leaving Yuan Shao. I had been sympathetic on this one till I reread it, the SGZ says Liu Bei was seeking to ditch Yuan Shao on the second trip to Runan and even if the SGZ is wrong, he did promise to reach out to Liu Biao as Yuan Shao (probably desperately) needed and didn't till after Yuan Shao's forces were defeated. That was dishonest of Liu Bei to make a pledge then break it and I'm not sure what good Liu Bei was doing by not carrying out his word.


1) The switching alliance thing came only AFTER he succeeded Tao Qian. So the 'leave Gongsun Zan' move itself was NOT a betrayal. And switching alliances happened all the goddamn time. I dont consider it really a betrayal.

2) Except he eventually did try. So technically he didnt go back on his word. And the only reason why he didnt reach out Liu Biao earlier was because

Yuan Shao sent the Former Lord to lead his original troops back to Runan, where he allied with the rebel Xi Du 襲都 and others to form a body of several
thousand persons. Duke Cao sent Cai Yang 蔡陽 to attack him, but he was killed by the Former Lord.


Yuan Shao sent him back to RUNAN. And thus Liu Bei was busy allying with local bandits and was forced to deal with a military expedition. He was in no position to go all the way to Jing at that point.

And then Cao Cao rekt Yuan Shao who retreated all the way back to Ye accross the river making Liu Bei completely stranded and isolated with Cao Cao marching towards him in fury. So again, no position to ally until he retreated southwards.

If I recall right Liu Bei's SGZ flatly states that he viewed Yuan Shao as a lost cause at that point, which isn't entirely wrong. If he really viewed Yuan Shao as hopeless at that point, it would've done him nor Fu Xuan's least favorite person ever any good to aid him in a failing war.


Source?
Liu Bei did nothing wrong.
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Re: Lu Bu or Liu Bei: who is the bigger traitor?

Unread postby DaoLunOfShiji » Wed Dec 19, 2018 5:36 am

I said "if I recall", going off memory, and I was wrong about that. Dong mentioned specifically what the SGZ said.
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Re: Lu Bu or Liu Bei: who is the bigger traitor?

Unread postby Han » Wed Dec 19, 2018 6:24 am

Oops. You are right. Apologies.
Liu Bei did nothing wrong.
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