Lu Bu or Liu Bei: who is the bigger traitor?

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Re: Lu Bu or Liu Bei: who is the bigger traitor?

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Mon Apr 30, 2012 6:46 am

But the Emperor was still alive.
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Re: Lu Bu or Liu Bei: who is the bigger traitor?

Unread postby Striga » Tue May 01, 2012 2:36 am

I suppose an argument was that he "wanted" to keep the Liu clan as emperors, so he declared himself, the "imperial uncle" in place of the emperor, while the emperor was usurped, and kept captive by Cao Pi.
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Re: Lu Bu or Liu Bei: who is the bigger traitor?

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Tue May 01, 2012 6:44 am

Oh there are arguments for both ways on whether Liu Bei was right, in pure idealogical or moral sense, to become Emperor or not.
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Re: Lu Bu or Liu Bei: who is the bigger traitor?

Unread postby Aygor » Fri Jun 15, 2012 3:35 pm

In my opinion one can't put Liu Bei and Lu Bu on the same level as betrayers.
I mean, name a warlord of that era (or of any war torned era for that matter) who did not betray anyone.
Yet Lu Bu was the only one who managed to slay his adoptive father. Twice.
Not saying Lu Bu is actually the worst of the era, but in an hypothetical betrayal league my guess is that he would be a heck of a lot higher ranked than Liu Bei.
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Re: Lu Bu or Liu Bei: who is the bigger traitor?

Unread postby dman4093 » Mon Oct 15, 2012 8:37 pm

lubu lubu killed his two adopted fathers one for a horse and money and another for sex also liu bei wanted to become a emperor it suprises me how everyone on this site hate liu bei
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Re: Lu Bu or Liu Bei: who is the bigger traitor?

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Tue Oct 16, 2012 9:56 am

dman4093 wrote:lubu lubu killed his two adopted fathers one for a horse and money and another for sex also liu bei wanted to become a emperor it suprises me how everyone on this site hate liu bei


Are we talking novel (which given how you describe Lu Bu's betrayals, I think you are talking novel) or history becuase I think people have different views on the novel Liu Bei and the history Liu Bei (ditto Lu Bu). I don't think people here hate Liu Bei but I would agree he isn't popular but then, Shu as a whole isn't as popular once people start reading the histories. Sometimes there is a massive fallout admittedly but overall, Lu Bei just isn't popular rather then actually unpopular I think

As for why lack of popularity, some find the novel Liu Bei irritating and that never quite goes away. Some love the novel Liu Bei then never regain that love, or even hate him, after finding the historical one was not a living saint but a ruthless and cunning warlord. I think the big thing is that people warm to Cao Cao and Sun Quan thanks to anecdotes and their love lives, something we don't have with Liu Bei.
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Re: Lu Bu or Liu Bei: who is the bigger traitor?

Unread postby Striga » Fri May 17, 2013 2:04 am

Reading this old thread has caused me to realize a major hole in my knowledge.

How did Lü Bu become the adoptive son of Ding Yuan in the first place, and what exactly was their relationship?
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Re: Lu Bu or Liu Bei: who is the bigger traitor?

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Fri May 17, 2013 9:18 am

I realize this isn't a helpful answer but all we have is

When the provincial Inspector, Ding Yuan, was promoted to be Chief Commander of the Cavalry and was stationed at Henei, he employed Lü Bu as his Master of Records, and entrusted much to him.


and

Knowing that Lü Bu was greatly trusted by Ding Yuan, he lured Lü Bu into killing him. Lü Bu followed through and brought Ding Yuan’s head back to Dong Zhuo.


so we know very little I'm afraid
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Re: Lu Bu or Liu Bei: who is the bigger traitor?

Unread postby Striga » Sat May 18, 2013 2:04 am

Hmm, so the first "adoptive father" employed Lü Bu, so would have been a sort of boss. Therefore, it is possible that Lü Bu didn't really have too much reason to be loyal to him, and acted as an adoptive son to be in Ding Yuan's favour.
Then, the second "adoptive father" had gotten Lü Bu to kill the first and serve as his body guard, so first of all, he shouldn't have expected his end result to be any better, and Lü Bu didn't have any real loyalties to him, as he was basically a mercenary who was paid with a horse and rank.

As for Liu Bei, Emperor Xian was basically gone (due to Wei) by the time he declared himself emperor. So I wouldn't consider Liu Bei much of a traitor either.

Indeed, I cannot actually think of anyone whom I'd actually deem a traitor.
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Re: Lu Bu or Liu Bei: who is the bigger traitor?

Unread postby Shuyouryo » Mon Jun 10, 2013 2:50 pm

Neither Lü Bu or Liu Bei is a traitor to me - but both were famous turncoats.

Lü Bu has betrayed Dong Zhuo and Ding Yuan and took into service of many of Cao Cao's turncoats, Lü Bu later took Xuzhou from Liu Bei while he was out on campaign when Zhang Fei beat/killed Cao Bao. Lü Bu's decision accept Liu Bei's surrender would eventually prove his undoing as Liu Bei would leave his service after an altercation between their forces and return with troops loaned from Cao Cao.

[Historically, Liu Bei first left Gongsun Zan's service to take over Xuzhou as an independant warlord, although he maintained the Xuzhou/Youzhou/Yuzhou alliance at least until Yuan Shu attacked him.]

Liu Bei turn against Lü Bu with Cao Cao after the defeat of Yuan Shu, and sortly after turned on his former benefector in a failed assasination attempt, at which time he slew Che Zhou, Governor of Xuzhou and took his place, but Cao Cao would personally lead a force out to defeat Liu Bei personally, and Liu Bei sought refuge with Yuan Shao. After a few unsuccessful battles, he abandons Yuan Shao after locating his retainers and re-establishes himself in Runan. Much later, he formed an alliance with Liu Zhang with the sole intention of taking over his province.

Honestly however, pretty much most of the warlords have been turncoats at one point or other (more the longer they lived and stayed in power).

The greatest traitors of the era to me are Zhang Chun, Yuan Shu and Cao Pi, both of which took the title "Emperor" the last founding a 40+ year dynasty.
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