Lu Bu or Liu Bei: who is the bigger traitor?

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Re: Lu Bu or Liu Bei: who is the bigger traitor?

Unread postby Striga » Fri Nov 04, 2011 8:31 pm

Therefore, Liu Bei and Zhuge Liang ended up slaughtering hundrends of thousands for no reason. :roll:
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Re: Lu Bu or Liu Bei: who is the bigger traitor?

Unread postby Shen Ai » Fri Nov 04, 2011 8:34 pm

Well, possibly. Why do people fight at all, because man is wrathful and angry. Cao Cao gained power and disrespected the previous dynasty by corrupting the emperor so Liu Bei threw a hissy fit and attacked.
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Re: Lu Bu or Liu Bei: who is the bigger traitor?

Unread postby Striga » Fri Nov 04, 2011 8:37 pm

More of fled, and found Zhuge Liang before begging Zhuge Liang to attack Cao Cao. The war had nothing to do with Liu Bei anyways, so he made a fool of himself by joining.
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Re: Lu Bu or Liu Bei: who is the bigger traitor?

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Fri Nov 04, 2011 10:53 pm

Shen Ai wrote:Liu Bei and some other idiots saw it as betrayal for not restoring his power. Personally, the Han had burned out by then.


I fail to see how men of clear intelligence like Xun Yu should be called idiots for trying to uphold a dynasty and a way of life that had been so successful once before.

If Liu Bei genuinely believed in the Han then he fought for a cause like many great men had before and some still did. If one sees a great wrong, which some people considered Cao Cao's actions to be, then are you saying people should stand by? Personally think Liu Bei fought for power. Same as most of the warlords. He showed great drive, charisma and ability to forge a kingdom and a legend for himself. It may not be a noble reason but the man's deeds deserve some respect surely?
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Re: Lu Bu or Liu Bei: who is the bigger traitor?

Unread postby Shen Ai » Sat Nov 05, 2011 12:03 am

His deeds do deserve respect, for his rise to power is incredible. But I disagree with him in that the Han should have been revived. It was successful once but it died out. You can try to restore it but he proved to be similar to Cao Cao in many regards so should he have lectured the man on how to be a good warlord. Han was wonderful at a time, indeed China was the strongest country in the world while it lasted. But every sun sets and it was Han's time. I wasn't there so I can't know what it felt like for the people to see the loss of a dynasty that was so great, but it caused immense ruin as well. Three Kingdoms was hardly better, but maybe Cao Cao or Liu Bei or Sun Quan could have create a world better than the Han. One with less problems. Unfortunately, they fought each other and the people then will be remembered as the creators of suffering and destroying a once great dynasty.
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Re: Lu Bu or Liu Bei: who is the bigger traitor?

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Sat Nov 05, 2011 7:24 am

The Han had been revived once before. Personally, think Liu Bei just used the Han as a political excuse for his ambitions to become ruler.

Perhaps had all the rulers given up and found one leader to serve, it probably would have been better for China. You can say that about most civil wars but humanity has many a dark past and these were men whose great ambitions were sparked off with the power vacuum. Humanity remembers them more fondly then they usually remember diplomats who bring about peace to be honest.
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Re: Lu Bu or Liu Bei: who is the bigger traitor?

Unread postby Striga » Sat Nov 05, 2011 2:46 pm

Each warlord fought for their own ambitions. Many factors will show who was more of a traitor: Their reason for fighting, their kindness to the people, their truthfulness...
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Re: Lu Bu or Liu Bei: who is the bigger traitor?

Unread postby PhoenixRising » Sun Apr 29, 2012 2:55 am

Striga wrote:Technically, he saved the Emperor, and then used him as a puppet.


right. Cao Cao is Gepeto, Emperor Xian is Phinokio :P

Well, i think Lu Bu is the worst. Killed Ding Yuan and then killed Dong Zhou. Revolt and then take Liu Bei's Xu Zhou. Ally him self with ZhongJia emperor.

At least uncle Liu is better one. Only, left Gongsun Zan for better employment. Betray Cao Cao due to emperor's edict. Leaving a broken big ship (aka the Yuan Clans). Backstabbing Liu Zhang. But hey!! :D guess what? he don't betray Han.
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Re: Lu Bu or Liu Bei: who is the bigger traitor?

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Sun Apr 29, 2012 6:26 am

Some would argue Liu Bei did by declaring himself Emperor.
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Re: Lu Bu or Liu Bei: who is the bigger traitor?

Unread postby Striga » Sun Apr 29, 2012 10:17 pm

Liu Bei's declaration was after Cao Pi usurped the emperor though.
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