Lu Bu or Liu Bei: who is the bigger traitor?

Best threads of the SGYYS, for your viewing pleasure.

Re: Lu Bu or Liu Bei: who is the bigger traitor?

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Tue Jun 11, 2013 10:26 am

I thought Liu Bei left Gongsun Zan for the 2,000 extra troops promised by Tao Qian?

Does ending a dead dynasty count as being a traitor though? Did Cao Pi ever believe in the Han?
“You, are a rebellious son who abandoned his father. You are a cruel brigand who murdered his lord. How can Heaven and Earth put up with you for long? And unless you die soon, how can you face the sight of men?”
User avatar
Dong Zhou
A-Dou
A-Dou
 
Posts: 14780
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2005 12:32 pm
Location: "Now we must die. May Your Majesty maintain yourself"

Re: Lu Bu or Liu Bei: who is the bigger traitor?

Unread postby Cao Chao » Tue Jun 11, 2013 6:28 pm

It could be argued that Cao Pi merely finished what Cao Cao began. By Cao Cao's death, Han's existence as a dynasty and as the legitimate central authority had been corroded to the point of nonexistence. You not only had a central government controlled basically by a regent dismissive of the Han who controlled all affairs of state, but you also had state within the state of Cao-Wei controlled a major part of northern China that was slowly but surely devouring the Han from within. Furthermore, you can argue that by opening stating that he intended to emulate King Wen of Zhou, Cao Cao's intentions were to eliminate the Han without hopefully garnering the name of traitor.
曹操曰:宁教我负天下人,休教天下人负我!
User avatar
Cao Chao
Langzhong
 
Posts: 590
Joined: Fri Oct 28, 2005 12:33 pm
Location: Whee?

Re: Lu Bu or Liu Bei: who is the bigger traitor?

Unread postby Jordan » Sat Jun 15, 2013 6:39 pm

That is what I believe. Cao Pi nominally only did what his father had already started in practice. The Han had been dead in all but name for many years before Cao Pi officially deposed it.
User avatar
Jordan
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 5884
Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2004 4:52 am

Re: Lu Bu or Liu Bei: who is the bigger traitor?

Unread postby Sun Kuang » Sun Jul 28, 2013 8:06 pm

Never really viewed Cao Pi as a traitor either, but he did force the abdication of Xian...still, I wouldn't ever call him a servant of the Han. Honestly I would say Meng Da was the biggest traitor of the time period, he went from Liu Zhang to Liu Bei to Wei and then tried to defect to Shu, didn't really show much allegiance to anyone besides Meng Da.

But going to the OP's question, between the two of them? That's tough...but I would go with Lu Bu, since Liu Bei did display some type of loyalty every now and then, and a lot of his betrayals were made out of desperation.
Never been one for something witty or clever in the sig box. Should prolly work on that.
User avatar
Sun Kuang
Apprentice
 
Posts: 22
Joined: Sun Jul 28, 2013 5:34 pm
Location: C.E.

Re: Lu Bu or Liu Bei: who is the bigger traitor?

Unread postby Shuforces » Sun Apr 30, 2017 8:46 pm

:/ You guys really are ROTK fans , I assure you that . Now , let's clear the facts .
1) Yuan Shao - Liu Bei didn't betray him , he left . Before joining with him , Liu Bei's forces were crushed by Cao Cao's and Liu and Zhang Fei were separated from Guan Yu , who joined Cao Cao to repay his debt . He could've escaped a long time before the battle of Guan Du . When Wen Chou and Yan Liang were slain , Yuan Shao was told that that , was Guan Yu . After that he ordered his forces to attack Liu Bei , so actually , Yuan Shao is the traitor in this case . Liu Bei had no other option but to run , having been cornered by Cao Cao's nad Yuan Shao's forces on two sides.
2) Lu Bu - Now , It's not really sure what happened here. All that is known is that Lu Bu was seeking refuge at Liu Bei , and , probably , just PROBABLY because Liu Bei sas the benevolent ruler who couldn't refuse a plea for help , accepted Lu Bu . After that he went to fight Yuan Shu and left Zhang Fei at Xia Pi to govern . Subsuquently , Zhang Fei went on a drinking rampage and killed Cao Bao who IS said to be Lu Bu's cousin . No facts about this too . After that Zhang Fei found Liu Bei and told him what happened . Historical documents say , that Liu Bei returned to Xia Pi where Lu Bu was now prefect to see the other side of the story . The fact that Lu bu gave him the seal of the governor and Liu Bei declined is probably Romanticized .
3) Liu Zhang - Now this is a tricky one . We all know they are related by blood . So , Liu Zhang wanted Liu Bei's help to deal with Zhang Lu and Ma Chao in the north. Liu Bei sent manay divisions to help and Liu Zhang was prompted by his officials to ambush Liu Bei's armies because they would betray him and strike Cheng Du undefended . Now Liu Bei could've attacked Liu ZHang A LOT earlier , but he didn't . That's why Pang Tong got himself killed . He was a prominent strategist indeed , so such a simple ambush couldn't have surprised him . He did that in order to make Liu Bei angry so that his lord could attack Liu Zhang. Liu Bei , furious and deeply hurt by Pang Tongs death , led 80% on his entier force to Ba Shu (the province where Cheng Du is capital) and seized It , but he didn't kill Liu Zhang.

That's It . Other versions aren't as good as this one , I can assure you . I've read and studied both history and ROTK .It's the version that I came up with although I'm netier Pro-Shu , nor Pro- Wei . But I am Anti-Wu .

Sun Quan and Wu are the biggest traitors . Imagine you best friend sticking a knife in your back ? Wu and Shu were allied , and Wu stabbed them in the back as the lowly scum they were . Too bad for people like Sun Jian and Sun Ce.
Shuforces
Tyro
 
Posts: 2
Joined: Thu Mar 03, 2016 2:36 pm

Re: Lu Bu or Liu Bei: who is the bigger traitor?

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Mon May 01, 2017 1:08 pm

Welcome back Shuforces

The problem, like your Zhuge Liang post, is your mixing novel and history.

1) Yuan Shao: Guan Yu didn't kill Wen Chou and Yuan Shao never ordered his forces to attack Liu Bei (I don't think he even does that one in the novel). I do agree Liu Bei wasn't a traitor on this, he got defeated in Xu and had to retreat with Liu Biao being a better option.

2) Lu Bu: Or Liu Bei took Lu Bu in becuase Lu Bu came with an army and resources Liu Bei needed, it is hard to know the exact reasons but that seems more likely given Liu Bei's pragmatic personality. Zhang Fei historically did not go on a drinking rampage and Cao Bao was not related to Lu Bu according to the historical records though the exact reason for killing Cao Bao is a little unclear (accusations Cao Bao was going to betray Liu Bei but the local certainly reacted badly to Cao Bao's death). Lu Bu would not have given Liu Bei the governorship back, he only gave family back.

3) Liu Zhang: Sorry but no. Liu Bei was hired to help against Zhang Lu but before he even to Yi, he had maps created, moles within Liu Zhang's court and was openly planning against his host, spent most of the year cultivating popular support. Liu Zhang felt Liu Bei didn't do his part of the deal and when Liu Zhang discovered Zhang Song's treachery, he locked the passes (a little unclear if that included the passes back to Jing) and Liu Bei struck. Pang Tong's as a strategist is somewhat exaggerated by the novel, the jealousy is fake and he died due to stray arrow when commanding siege of Luo castle

As much as I love to tease Shu fans, they have it right in that the invasion of Liu Zhang was a betrayal but one he needed to take. I get the impression from your post that you think Liu Bei's novel saintless is exaggerated but his benevolent nature is mostly true but historically it isn't. The historical Liu Bei was a kind man by all accounts and he never had the real dark side of Cao Cao or Sun Quan but he was an ambitious, pragmatic and ruthless warlord.

4)
Sun Quan and Wu are the biggest traitors . Imagine you best friend sticking a knife in your back ? Wu and Shu were allied , and Wu stabbed them in the back as the lowly scum they were . Too bad for people like Sun Jian and Sun Ce.


Sun Jian and Sun Ce backstabbed and given Sun Quan changed history during his reign, I imagine they would be quite proud.

The friend thing isn't a good comparison, Sun Quan and Liu Bei were never close. More like two businesses that allied for mutual interest and then one business did a hostile takeover of a key part of the other business. As for Sun Quan being lowly scum, he did a hell of a lot more for people and to change the course of history in a positive way then I suspect either of us are ever going to do. Obviously the hundreds of thousands who live and served Wu were not lowly scum, just people

If you think of any half capable, ruled for a degree of time, one can safely use the term "backstabber" about them and be correct 99% of the time. Warlords got to power by deal making, ruthlessness, ambition, taking opportunities and yes, backstabbing when it suited them. Lu Bu happened to be bad at it, Sun Quan and Liu Bei very good at it, they get flak becuase Shu fans understandably upset over Jing 219 and Liu Bei gets flak I suspect partly becuase of the novel holiness.
“You, are a rebellious son who abandoned his father. You are a cruel brigand who murdered his lord. How can Heaven and Earth put up with you for long? And unless you die soon, how can you face the sight of men?”
User avatar
Dong Zhou
A-Dou
A-Dou
 
Posts: 14780
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2005 12:32 pm
Location: "Now we must die. May Your Majesty maintain yourself"

Re: Lu Bu or Liu Bei: who is the bigger traitor?

Unread postby greencactaur » Sun Aug 13, 2017 4:34 pm

I have to say I agree with you completely. The aliiance, the marriage, everything between Liu-sun was only because they both had a mutual enemy to face. They weren't friends, but business men like you said. Its true Liu Bei taking Yi was "backstabbing" but at the end of the day Liu Bei is the one sitting on the high chair in Yi. Same with Sun Quan he "backstabbed" Liu Bei, but he got Jing province by doing so.
Lu Bu was sort of an idiot. He killed Ding Yuan, He killed Dong Zhou, He sought refuge under Yuan shu and Yuan Shao if I remember correctly getting kicked out of both, He invaded Cao Cao when he was away (Smart move IMO), than lost puyang. Had to go over to Liu Bei, ends up betraying Liu Bei. Discusses an alliance with Yuan Shu, but backs out. Cao Cao surrounds him, he tries to ally with Yuan Shu again. He was all over the place.

So I guess what i'm saying is Liu Bei is the intelligent traitor, while Lu Bu is more of the idiotic traitor?
User avatar
greencactaur
Academic
 
Posts: 177
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2016 3:50 pm

Re: Lu Bu or Liu Bei: who is the bigger traitor?

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Mon Aug 14, 2017 3:37 pm

Yuan Shao tried to kill Lu Bu so in fairness, Lu Bu probably right to leg it :wink: Lu Bu sometimes got in trouble becuase he gave his men great leeway and thought not an idiot, politically he was short sighted and would jump at whatever opportunity was in front of him.
“You, are a rebellious son who abandoned his father. You are a cruel brigand who murdered his lord. How can Heaven and Earth put up with you for long? And unless you die soon, how can you face the sight of men?”
User avatar
Dong Zhou
A-Dou
A-Dou
 
Posts: 14780
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2005 12:32 pm
Location: "Now we must die. May Your Majesty maintain yourself"

Re: Lu Bu or Liu Bei: who is the bigger traitor?

Unread postby LiuBeiwasGreat » Mon Aug 14, 2017 3:40 pm

Lu Bu was the bigger traitor when compared to Liu Bei. Despite Liu Bei being physically fit Lu Bu was famous for his martial abilities and thus would have been a very big person. As Liu Bei was certainly physically smaller then Lu Bu that shows that he is the smaller traitor in comparison. :P
"If you can't drink a lobbyist's whiskey, take his money, sleep with his women and still vote against him in the morning, you don't belong in politics."
LiuBeiwasGreat
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 2495
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 4:13 pm
Location: Raleigh, NC

Re: Lu Bu or Liu Bei: who is the bigger traitor?

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Tue Aug 15, 2017 7:39 am

Yep, that logic works perfectly for me. Issue sorted, thread locked!
“You, are a rebellious son who abandoned his father. You are a cruel brigand who murdered his lord. How can Heaven and Earth put up with you for long? And unless you die soon, how can you face the sight of men?”
User avatar
Dong Zhou
A-Dou
A-Dou
 
Posts: 14780
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2005 12:32 pm
Location: "Now we must die. May Your Majesty maintain yourself"

Previous

Return to Sanguo Yanyi Symposium Archives

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

Copyright © 2002–2008 Kongming’s Archives. All Rights Reserved