Piecing together Chang Ban (summary now included)

Best threads of the SGYYS, for your viewing pleasure.

Unread postby Mengdez New Book » Tue Aug 19, 2003 11:03 am

jiuwan wrote:That was not what I was implying. Zhou Yu's wife significantly lower in status than Empress Gan. If someone that low, can mention their daughter, then should not an Empress as well? Cao Cao's daughters were not mentioned in his bio, but they were mentioned in other bios, that showed he indeed had daughters.

Princess Qing He (I think that's her name, it's the only one that I can think of off the top of my head without checking) was mentioned as Cao Ang's sister and Xiahou Mao' wife. She did not necessarily needed to being mentioned in Cao Cao's bio.

Which is what I stated in the very beginning. I'm not saying that your defending it's 100% that he had the two daughters. I was showing you there is more factors pointing it as no daughters, but two wives instead.

Let see about that, according to Zhao Yun SGZ bio, 弃妻子南走 (Translation: Liu Bei abandoned his wife and move to South).

Then, according to Liu Bei SGZ bio, 先主弃妻子 (Translation: Liu Bei abandoned his wife). 布还其妻子 (Translation: Lu Bu returned Liu Bei's wife)

Furthermore, according to Guan Yu SGZ bio, 尽虏羽士众妻子 (Translation: Lu Meng catched Guan Yu's armies and his wife)

Here, can you see if Chen Shou mentioned about wife, he usually will use the word 妻子 which mean wife in English.

And, let see how Chen Shou used 女 (According to you, 女 mean wife here).
First, Guan Yu SGZ bio wrote, 先是权遣使为子索羽 (Translation: Sun Quan proposed a marriage between his son and Guan Yu's daughter)

Second, according to Ma Chao SGZ bio, 超配安平王理 (Translation: Ma Chao's daughter married to An Ping Wang who named Li)

Third, according to Xiahou Dun SGZ bio, 太祖以妻楙 (Translation: Cao Cao let Xiahou Mao to marry his daughter)

If Chen Shou mentioned about daughters, he usually would use (not to mention about princess). This is the reason why i think your view on 获其二辎重 (Your Translation: Captured Liu Bei's wife and supplies) looks suspicious to me. If they were really Liu Bei's wives, Chen Shou could have wrote 获其二辎重.

jiuwan wrote:Now if Liu Bei indeed had two daughters at the point of Chang Ban or anywhere else there could be a mention of it somewhere. But there was no mentioning of them at all from what I can find.

What if Liu Bei's daughters after been seized by Cao Chun disappeared/executed in the history, there was nothing to be written down. Note that we know Cao Cao and Sun Quan had daughters coz they married their daughters to the general or advisor. Could you 100% sure that Cao Cao had only two (or three?) daughters in the history (which being mentioned by Chen Shou) while he had 25 sons? :roll: That's why i say that two girls maybe were Liu Bei's daughter.

jiuwan wrote:Best in 'All under Heaven'. That word was used too lightly in my oppinion. They may have been the best, but what was it compared to? The armies weren't that well trained. Even if they were the best among them, it doesn't make them that much "better". And that was what I was questioning.

Well, if we looked at the accomplishment of Cao Cao's cavalry during that time, it might help to see why such a praise had been given to them. First, they destroyed Xiong Nu's cavalry, although Xiong Nu at that time was not as powerful during Xi Han, still they were the race who depended greatly on horse and their main military unit was cavalry. So, if Cao Cao could defeat them with his cavalry, it was consider great. Second, Cao Cao cavalry defeated Xi Liang armies, Xi Liang armies under Ma Teng and Han Sui were also once best cavalry around. Hence, when Cao Cao defeated them, his cavalry will like the best at that time. Plus, Cao Cao using his cavalry to unite the whole North, where a place all the Lords preferred to used cavalry because of the flat landscape. After the unification, there hardly other cavalry around to match Cao Cao's cavalry.

For the not well trained issue, i reply it at below.

jiuwan wrote:No. He does not. But Chen Shou has show in the bios how many battles Cao Cao was constantly in. It is easy to deduce time spent for training is minimal, which makes it less effecient.

I see you kept bringing up that Cao Cao's armies or cavalry were not well trained. So, according to you, how much time do you think that Cao Cao's armies should be trained to meet it's efficiency? Well, i think you should know that Sun Wu only used a day to train up a squad of discipline 'army'.

jiuwan wrote:A month's vacation is not without reason. Think of it from the soldiers perspective. Would you want to fight constantly without seeing your love ones? Soldiers need some down time from training and serving in the army. Also there will be some time in between for training. And then there's setting up camps, baggage, marching etc... that all takes time. Deploying your troops to various places isn't easy and could be done quickly.

It is not necessarily for Cao Cao alone to train all his armies. During Sanguo era, it was very common that each generals had been given an amount of armies. So, when Cao Cao warring other states, the general that not been selected can train his own armies. And, i don't think Cao Cao will bring out all his armies and attacked the enemy, those who left at the capital will have time to train.

I certainly not like to fight constantly but the question here, do i have a choice at that time? According to the history, Cao Cao military laws were very strict. If Cao Cao insisted, i don't think i have much choice.

jiuwan wrote:??? You lost me on that one.

Sorry but what are you trying to point out here? First i asked you that why Cao Cao gave only Cao's member to lead the Tiger Leopard Cavalry then you told me it was because they had close relationship with Cao Cao. According to youe example, Xiahou Dun was the one who were received most attention from Cao Cao although he accomplised not much. Here i would like to ask you again, if Tiger Leopard Cavalry not so important, why Cao Cao only gave Cao family led it instead of other generals?
User avatar
Mengdez New Book
No Title
 
Posts: 645
Joined: Sat Jan 11, 2003 4:35 am

Unread postby Jimayo » Tue Aug 19, 2003 3:25 pm

jiuwan wrote:I hope that was for Great Deer and not me, cuz he was the one that said it not me. typo? Well you can that point to debate with him, I'll sit out for now.


Yeah, my apologies, I deleted the wrong quote=.
98% of the internet population has a Myspace. If you're part of the 2% that isn't an emo bastard, copy and paste this into your sig.
Jimayo
Lord of the Thirteen Hells
 
Posts: 3308
Joined: Sat Jun 15, 2002 1:38 am
Location: Nothingness. And that's where I'll be returning in oh, about 15 minutes.

Unread postby Jimayo » Tue Aug 19, 2003 3:35 pm

Great Deer wrote:Please point out the sources to support your claim that the northern armies's training periodhad to be a continuous 2 years stretch. Also, please don't use the Roman legion thinggy here because we're talking about the Chinese style of training armies.


Generally. I'll have to look it up in Northern Frontier to give you the sources, but unless a war broke out(which was fairly rare), then it would be a 2 year continous stretch of training, minimum. The corp of the army stayed with them much longer than that, and had far more training and experience.

Great Deer wrote:In any case, I'm not generalising but any statement which states that Cao Cao's army was comparable to a peasant army was definitely generalising and even absurd. If you just join in the discussion, I'd appreciate it if you can go through all the posts.


May not be entirely a peasant army, but in some cases the quick drafting to go off to battle would leave it little better. And to be honest, the yellow turbans probably weren't as bad as you think. The northern army was pretty much annihilated in 177. Up until that point, every able bodied male joined the army for a period of 2 years. Gives you high quality reserves that way. After the army was annihilated in 177, they stopped doing that. 184 comes along, and I'd imagine that some of the yt rebels would be those trained men. On the other hand, 189, and those men would be pretty old for military service. Likely younger more poorly trained men to be drafted by Cao Cao and his forces.

Great Deer wrote:Clearly, a Yellow Turban type army was not capable of staying together and going through all the army maneuvers in difficult battles such as Guan Du and Bai Lang Shan.


That could surprise you too. After all Bo Cai and Zhang Manelang led their forces to victory over Huangfu Song and Zhu Jun. It wasn't until Huangu and Zhu combined their forces to attack each individually that victory was achieved.

Great Deer wrote:Finally, please don't put words into my mouth. When did I say or even implied that all of Cao Cao's armies were highly trained to veteran status? And did I say anything about Roman Legion level?


Those were examples chris, to give you an idea of the kind of training it takes to make a good soldier in those days. It's not like today, when any idiot can use a gun. It takes time and effort to learn to use a sword and shield effectively.

Great Deer wrote:If people in this discussion are quoting from GoS or Rafe himself, I'd appreciate it too if you can name the source which Rafe used.


Read it yourself you lazy b****** :wink: . The nature of three kingdoms armies in the Archives. The footnotes are at the bottom of the piece. I always type them up when I do a passage now. Just for you chris.
98% of the internet population has a Myspace. If you're part of the 2% that isn't an emo bastard, copy and paste this into your sig.
Jimayo
Lord of the Thirteen Hells
 
Posts: 3308
Joined: Sat Jun 15, 2002 1:38 am
Location: Nothingness. And that's where I'll be returning in oh, about 15 minutes.

Unread postby Mega Zarak » Tue Aug 19, 2003 4:38 pm

Before I carry on any further, I'd like to post the question to you Denny, whether you've really read through the entire exchange between jiuwan and myself before you decided to post your ideas here.

My case has always been that Cao-Wei did possess a few elite units and Cao Cao's army was not totally untrained prior 208 A.D. I do have my evidences to support that but somehow, I do not feel oblige to post them right now especially when people come around posting their own opinions without personal experiences, factual accounts, etc. to support them.

As for you Denny, I'd like you to state your stand clearly. At this moment, I'm taking that you're for Cao Cao's army being no difference compared to that of a newly recruited peasant force even during 208 A.D. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Ok. Let's continue with this rather meaningless rambling amidst the chaotic mess of speculations.

====

Notorious P.I.K. wrote:Generally. I'll have to look it up in Northern Frontier to give you the sources, but unless a war broke out(which was fairly rare), then it would be a 2 year continous stretch of training, minimum. The corp of the army stayed with them much longer than that, and had far more training and experience.

Once again, I'd appreciate it if you post the source and specify the type of training that you're talking about. Honestly, I do not really care for non-substantiated opinions even if they're from some renown people since I have come across plenty of opinions from different good sources (in both Chinese and English) and Rafe's works are just one of them.


Notorious P.I.K. wrote:May not be entirely a peasant army, but in some cases the quick drafting to go off to battle would leave it little better.

So what's your point here?

Notorious P.I.K. wrote:And to be honest, the yellow turbans probably weren't as bad as you think.

We all know the magnitude of the Yellow Turban Rebellions but may I ask how long did it last? Furthermore, an untrained army was often an ill-discipline army. This was evidence from the actions of plundering by the Yellow Turban rebels and even Cao Cao's Qing Zhou Bing in the early days (look at Yu Jin's bio).

Notorious P.I.K. wrote:The northern army was pretty much annihilated in 177.

Did you base this on Chinese records or are you putting words into Rafe's mouth? If you're looking at Rafe's work, then the phrase northern army was used to describe the army stationed in the capital. The army that was defeated fell under the category of field army. In any case, if you check out HHS's Ling Di's biography and HHS's section on Xianbi, you'd notice that although the defeat was big, it wasn't necessarily as crippling as you exaggerated it to be. The loss was less than 30000 troops in all.

"遂遣夏育出高柳,田晏出云中,匈奴中郎将臧旻率南单于出鴈门,各将万骑,三道出塞二千余里。□石槐命三部大人各帅觽逆战,育等大败,丧其节传辎重,各将数十骑奔还,死者十七八。"

From the above, Tian Yan and 2 other generals brought with them 10,000 cavalry unit each and in the end, they lost 70-80% of their troops. Hence, less than 30,000. I hope that next time, when you'd be more careful with what you quote.

Notorious P.I.K. wrote:Up until that point, every able bodied male joined the army for a period of 2 years. Gives you high quality reserves that way. After the army was annihilated in 177, they stopped doing that. 184 comes along, and I'd imagine that some of the yt rebels would be those trained men. On the other hand, 189, and those men would be pretty old for military service. Likely younger more poorly trained men to be drafted by Cao Cao and his forces.

With the nullification of your previous quote, I don't see why I should go into this point which I consider void.

Notorious P.I.K. wrote:That could surprise you too. After all Bo Cai and Zhang Manelang led their forces to victory over Huangfu Song and Zhu Jun. It wasn't until Huangu and Zhu combined their forces to attack each individually that victory was achieved.

Denny, victories from battles by the YTR won't surprise me. Victories from the overall campaigns will. :D Also, using your own point against the generalizing remarks made by those who claimed that Cao Cao's army was entirely untrained (since he didn't have the time to train them), I could safely say that exceptions did exist (like how Denny pointed out for the case of YTR).

Notorious P.I.K. wrote:Those were examples chris, to give you an idea of the kind of training it takes to make a good soldier in those days.

What makes you think that the Roman legion would be a good benchmark in China? In addition, did I even claim that all of Cao Cao's army must behave like tortoises? :lol:

Notorious P.I.K. wrote: It's not like today, when any idiot can use a gun.

So do you know how to use a gun? Do you suppose that army training today only consist of gun handling? :roll:

Notorious P.I.K. wrote:It takes time and effort to learn to use a sword and shield effectively.

I understand that of course. At the same time, I also recognise the fact that there is no requirement for each soldier to handle the spear as competently as say Guan Yu, or the bow like Li Guang.

Notorious P.I.K. wrote:Read it yourself you lazy b****** :wink: . The nature of three kingdoms armies in the Archives. The footnotes are at the bottom of the piece. I always type them up when I do a passage now. Just for you chris.

hahaha..thanks Denny. However, I think it's only fair for you to put the respective quotes in a discussion so that the other members who are interested will not be left with a feeling that they have to accept something which they cannot justify.

Before I end, I'd just like to add to more points:

1) Cao Cao didn't bring ALL his soldiers and officers with him in ALL of his battles during ALL the time.
2) Cao Cao didn't take part in ALL the northern battles ALL the time.
3) Cao Cao wasn't the ONLY guy in Wei's military hierarchy.
4) There are different types of military training.
5) When soldiers were not involved in battles, ALL of them did not stand at the camp gate or city gate or patrol or sleep ALL the time.
6) Training of the soldiers can be done at different levels.

I may bring up some evidences I have on hand if you can give me the proper justifications for your claim that RTK armies had to be trained up to a continuous 2 years period, and if not, they must be labelled as untrained. Also, please think about your stand and read through the previous posts if unsure. :D
User avatar
Mega Zarak
Grand Tutor of Wei
 
Posts: 1111
Joined: Sun Jun 16, 2002 2:38 am
Location: North of the River

Unread postby Jimayo » Tue Aug 19, 2003 10:00 pm

Great Deer wrote:Before I carry on any further, I'd like to post the question to you Denny, whether you've really read through the entire exchange between jiuwan and myself before you decided to post your ideas here.


For the most part. I know how the argument started chris. Just that both of you have lost track of your original points and seem to be generalising now. I agree with your earlier statements about elite units and Zhang Fei's shout probably not being the factor that caused Cao Cao's army to tuck tail and run.

Great Deer wrote:My case has always been that Cao-Wei did possess a few elite units and Cao Cao's army was not totally untrained prior 208 A.D. I do have my evidences to support that but somehow, I do not feel oblige to post them right now especially when people come around posting their own opinions without personal experiences, factual accounts, etc. to support them.


I totally agree with you there. And I'm not saying that his entire army was untrained(hell I doubt any of it was untrained), just that the majority of it was poorly trained. And I surely agree with you that he had elite units. I'd imagine he'd have a fair amount of troops who survived a lot of his battles, those would battle-hardened experienced troops who would surely make for quality elite units.

Great Deer wrote:As for you Denny, I'd like you to state your stand clearly. At this moment, I'm taking that you're for Cao Cao's army being no difference compared to that of a newly recruited peasant force even during 208 A.D. Please correct me if I'm wrong.


Not hardly. I'd say a large part of it was a poorly trained force(I wouldn't call it a peasant army and I wouldn't say untrained either), but he quite probably had a solid corp force(most armies did at the time).

I'll have to get back to you about the rest of it dude. I gotta give up the computer right now.
98% of the internet population has a Myspace. If you're part of the 2% that isn't an emo bastard, copy and paste this into your sig.
Jimayo
Lord of the Thirteen Hells
 
Posts: 3308
Joined: Sat Jun 15, 2002 1:38 am
Location: Nothingness. And that's where I'll be returning in oh, about 15 minutes.

Unread postby Mega Zarak » Wed Aug 20, 2003 2:36 am

Notorious P.I.K. wrote:I agree with your earlier statements about elite units and Zhang Fei's shout probably not being the factor that caused Cao Cao's army to tuck tail and run.

...

I totally agree with you there. And I'm not saying that his entire army was untrained(hell I doubt any of it was untrained), just that the majority of it was poorly trained. And I surely agree with you that he had elite units. I'd imagine he'd have a fair amount of troops who survived a lot of his battles, those would battle-hardened experienced troops who would surely make for quality elite units.


That's good enough for me, at least when this thread is concerned. :D This is the point I'm trying to say before people start claiming that those elite units were in fact untrained since Cao Cao didn't have the time to train them.

Anyway, I'd recommend that we post in your thread on the nature of TK era armies if you wish to further the discussion. I'm afraid we have digressed enough in this thread. :P
User avatar
Mega Zarak
Grand Tutor of Wei
 
Posts: 1111
Joined: Sun Jun 16, 2002 2:38 am
Location: North of the River

Unread postby Jimayo » Wed Aug 20, 2003 2:15 pm

Great Deer wrote:That's good enough for me, at least when this thread is concerned. :D This is the point I'm trying to say before people start claiming that those elite units were in fact untrained since Cao Cao didn't have the time to train them.

Anyway, I'd recommend that we post in your thread on the nature of TK era armies if you wish to further the discussion. I'm afraid we have digressed enough in this thread. :P


Alright then. I'll be happy to move the rest of my answers down to that thread(tonight, I was pretty lazy yesterday and never got around to looking up that shit in Northern Frontier).
98% of the internet population has a Myspace. If you're part of the 2% that isn't an emo bastard, copy and paste this into your sig.
Jimayo
Lord of the Thirteen Hells
 
Posts: 3308
Joined: Sat Jun 15, 2002 1:38 am
Location: Nothingness. And that's where I'll be returning in oh, about 15 minutes.

Previous

Return to Sanguo Yanyi Symposium Archives

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

Copyright © 2002–2008 Kongming’s Archives. All Rights Reserved