Wu: The Lone Warrior of ChiBi.

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Wu: The Lone Warrior of ChiBi.

Unread postby Han Xin » Sat Jul 27, 2002 2:15 pm

Before the SoSZ server crashed on the 22nd of July, I had made this topic and since it was strangely (conspiracy:lol: ) lost once the server is back up again, I restarted this topic so give other people the truth about ChiBi. Here is the event I wrote up following my research. Note that my version of ChiBi is solely base on SGZ (book of Wei, Wu and Shu). Since this is a serious forum, I post the serious version so most of fanatic Shu supporters like Kongming, Dragon, and etc or extreme anti-Wu people like Great Deer could read and attack the truth of ChiBi.

ChiBi - SGZ Chen Shou orginal, HuaiYin Hou's version :mrgreen:

In 208AD after destroying his rival in the north, Cao Cao already eyeing on the south made a sweep move for JingZhou. Setting out from XuChang with more than 200,000 foots and cavalries, Cao Cao determined to force Liu Bei out of Xin Ye. Seeing that his force were severely outnumbered, Liu Bei decided to abandon Xin Ye and force the good people of Xin Ye to go with him to act as a mobile human shield for his troops. With the fast pace of Cao Cao’s army, Liu Zong, the governor of JingZhou decided to surrender to Cao Cao. Without any remaining place to go, Liu Bei was force to seek refuge in Liu Qi remaining enclave in the prefecture of JiangXia.

Feeling that he had gained the entire land of JingZhou relatively easy, Cao Cao felt very confident of doing the same to Sun Quan’s controlled Yang and personally wrote a letter to Sun Quan to seek Sun Quan submission. While at Liu Qi’s camped at JiangXia, Liu Bei realized that without the help of Sun Quan, Cao Cao would soon have the entire empire under his hand so Liu Bei send his chief advisor, Zhuge Liang, to ChaiSang to seek an alliance with Sun Quan.

At Sun Quan’s power base in ChaiSang, a letter arrived from Cao Cao. After reading the contents of Cao Cao’s letter, Sun Quan was very worry about opposing Cao Cao and asked his military and civil officers for suggestion on what to do. Many of Sun Quan’s civil officers suggested Sun Quan to submit to Cao Cao to save the land of JiangDong from bloodshed. Sun Quan was very disheartened and does not know what he should do. One of his servant told him that an officer of Liu Bei by the name of Zhuge Liang had arrived at ChaiSang and wished to seek an audience with Sun Quan. Sun Quan agreed and invited Zhuge Liang in.

Zhuge Liang used words to provoke Sun Quan into war against Cao Cao, however, knowing this was a trick Sun Quan decided to wait for his most trusted general by the name of Zhou Yu to return from the naval camp. Zhou Yu arrived at ChaiSang and quickly seek an audience from Sun Quan. Zhou Yu advice Sun Quan to opposed Cao Cao and after a detailed analytical report on Cao Cao’s troops strength and weakness, Sun Quan was very confident that Zhou Yu could beat Cao Cao and made Zhou Yu the Chief commander of his army. Sun Quan also made Cheng Pu the second in command and told Zhou Yu, Cheng Pu and Lu Su to followed Zhuge Liang back to Liu Bei’s camp. Zhuge Liang believing that it was he that persuaded Sun Quan to fight Cao Cao start to fell that he was the greatest genius of all time.

Liu Bei greeted Zhou Yu and Cheng Pu warmly when they arrived to pay their respect at his camp. Not really confident that Zhou Yu could beat Cao Cao, Liu Bei asked Zhou Yu “To resist Cao Cao, we need strategies. How many troops do you have?”

Zhou Yu replied “30,000 infantry and marine in total”

Liu Bei sighted “I regret that it too few”

Zhou Yu then said confidently “30,000 are more than sufficient, YuZhou (Liu Bei’s other name) could observed how I overcome such odd.”

Even with the assurance from Zhou Yu, Liu Bei still felt very uncertain so he suggested to Zhou Yu to station his own troops at the bank of the river, and Liu Bei would act as a re-enforcement force and camp further inland. Knowing that Liu Bei did not have the confident in the alliance beating Cao Cao and only try to make up an excuse to avoid engaging in battle, Zhou Yu was still happy to follow Liu Bei suggestion. Liu Bei took all of his force and set up camp more than 30km south of the YangXi River.

Zhou Yu realized that Cao Cao’s troops are from the north and they are exhausted after many years of constant warfare so he decided to use attrition tactics to wear down the morale of Cao Cao’s men.

Knowing that his force were mainly from the north and not use to naval warfare, Cao Cao decided to link his ship together to make all his ship more stable so his soldiers would not get sick. Knowing this Huang Gai, a general who followed the Sun family for three generation, suggested using fire to burn the entire northern fleet. Zhou Yu believe that a fire attack without any co-ordinate raid on the northern camp would not be decisive and that winter is a season of unfavorable wind so he initially rejected Huang Gai’s plan of fire attack.

However one day while strolling on the bank of the YangXi, Zhou Yu saw an old fisherman and started a casual conversation with him. After a short period, the old fisherman realized that Zhou Yu was a humble person and that Sun Quan was a generous and benevolent ruler so the fisherman decided to help Zhou Yu. The fisherman told Zhou Yu that favorable wind would blow for 3 days in winter without fail and told Zhou Yu the exact date that the wind would start blowing.

Knowing that there would be a favorable wind, Zhou Yu summoned Huang Gai and told him to go ahead with his plan to set fire to Cao Cao’s fleet and that he, Cheng Pu, and the other generals would lead coordinated raid against Cao Cao’s camp on land. The plan succeeds and within one night, Cao Cao’s northern fleet was burn to ashes. Large number of Cao Cao’s troops on water was either drowns or burn alive, Cao Cao’s camp was also thrown into confusion and seeing that the opportunity arrived, Zhou Yu and his men raided the northern camp. Although Cao Cao’s force stationed on land does not suffer large number of fatality, however Zhou Yu’s raided inflicted deep-cut wound on a large number of northern soldiers.

Initially, Cao Cao refused to withdraw his force back to JiangLing fearing that he would be a joke to the rest of the world. However after a few days, the open wound on many of his soldiers had become infected and they were dying off like flies. Realizing that he would be dead if he did not retreated back to JiangLing, Cao Cao ordered his troops to withdraw via the HuaRong route.

Zhou Yu realizing that Cao Cao is retreating ordered his troop to pursued to JiangLing. At Liu Bei’s camp, after realizing that Zhou Yu had crushed Cao Cao at ChiBi, Liu Bei decided to join the Cao Cao chase to JiangLing. At the foot of JiangLing, Zhou Yu and Liu Bei meet and began to set a siege on the city. Seeing that the situation had become too dangerous, Cao Cao flee back to XuChang and ordered one of his best commander, Cao Ren, to defense JiangLing by all mean necessary.

Knowing that Cao Ren would keep Zhou Yu preoccupied for awhile, Liu Bei suggested to Zhou Yu to continue keeping up the siege of JiangLing while he and his generals, Guan Yu and Zhang Fei, would attacked Cao Cao’s other remaining prefectures in JingZhou (ChangSha, WuLing, GuiLing, and LingLing) to stop any re-enforcement reaching JiangLing. Although knowing this is just an excuse Liu Bei used to weaseling territories from Wu, Zhou Yu still agree to the arrangement realizing the great strategic important of JiangLing.

Initially, Cao Ren did his job well in defending JiangLing. For about a year Zhou Yu could not captured JiangLing, however, by using Gan Ning as a decoyed to lure Cao Ren out of JingLing, Zhou Yu manage beat Cao Ren and force him to retreat to the north.


Okay, I am waiting for the comments and abused from you guys...
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Unread postby LittleConqueror » Sat Jul 27, 2002 2:22 pm

Ahh... there is someone who also believes Liu Bei did nothing at Chi Bi. And proved it as well. But Cheng Pu wasn't co-commander? Didn't know that one.
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Unread postby Lance » Sat Jul 27, 2002 5:37 pm

Not this one again......admittedly, Chi-Bi isn't one of my strong points. However, sounds pretty pro-Wu to me, I thought Wu didn't get the respect it deserved?:roll: I'd also like to point out that it's not Chen Shou's work......as Han Xin points out.......could some one verify the credibility of this excerpt?
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Re: Wu: The Lone Warrior of ChiBi.

Unread postby Mega Zarak » Sun Jul 28, 2002 4:20 am

Firstly, I must say that most of the contents are taken from Pei's annotations if I'm not wrong.


Han Xin wrote:ChiBi - SGZ Chen Shou orginal, HuaiYin Hou's version :mrgreen:

No, please don't put Chen Shou's original when it is not.

Han Xin wrote:In 208AD after destroying his rival in the north, Cao Cao already eyeing on the south made a sweep move for JingZhou. Setting out from XuChang with more than 200,000 foots and cavalries, Cao Cao determined to force Liu Bei out of Xin Ye. Seeing that his force were severely outnumbered, Liu Bei decided to abandon Xin Ye and force the good people of Xin Ye to go with him to act as a mobile human shield for his troops.

Mobile human shield?? I guess these words come from yourself. hehehe.. :D

Han Xin wrote:Feeling that he had gained the entire land of JingZhou relatively easy, Cao Cao felt very confident of doing the same to Sun Quan’s controlled Yang and personally wrote a letter to Sun Quan to seek Sun Quan submission.

While at Liu Qi’s camped at JiangXia, Liu Bei realized that without the help of Sun Quan, Cao Cao would soon have the entire empire under his hand so Liu Bei send his chief advisor, Zhuge Liang, to ChaiSang to seek an alliance with Sun Quan. At Sun Quan’s power base in ChaiSang, a letter arrived from Cao Cao. After reading the contents of Cao Cao’s letter, Sun Quan was very worry about opposing Cao Cao and asked his military and civil officers for suggestion on what to do. Many of Sun Quan’s civil officers suggested Sun Quan to submit to Cao Cao to save the land of JiangDong from bloodshed. Sun Quan was very disheartened and does not know what he should do. One of his servant told him that an officer of Liu Bei by the name of Zhuge Liang had arrived at ChaiSang and wished to seek an audience with Sun Quan. Sun Quan agreed and invited Zhuge Liang in.

If I'm not wrong, it was Sun Quan who dispatched Lu Su to meetup with Liu Bei first because Sun Quan was afraid of Cao Cao's southern incursion (Lu Su's bio).

Han Xin wrote:Zhuge Liang used words to provoke Sun Quan into war against Cao Cao, however, knowing this was a trick Sun Quan decided to wait for his most trusted general by the name of Zhou Yu to return from the naval camp.

This is just your personal interpretation.

Han Xin wrote:Zhou Yu arrived at ChaiSang and quickly seek an audience from Sun Quan. Zhou Yu advice Sun Quan to opposed Cao Cao and after a detailed analytical report on Cao Cao’s troops strength and weakness, Sun Quan was very confident that Zhou Yu could beat Cao Cao and made Zhou Yu the Chief commander of his army.

Sun Quan was not really that confident. In fact, it was mentioned in Zhou Yu's bio with ref. to Jiang Bio Zhuan that Sun Quan suggested to Zhou Yu that Zhou Yu should retreat if he faced difficulties and let he himself deal with Cao Cao.

Han Xin wrote:Sun Quan also made Cheng Pu the second in command and told Zhou Yu, Cheng Pu and Lu Su to followed Zhuge Liang back to Liu Bei’s camp. Zhuge Liang believing that it was he that persuaded Sun Quan to fight Cao Cao start to fell that he was the greatest genius of all time.

No. It was you who though that the Shuist believed that.

Han Xin wrote:Liu Bei greeted Zhou Yu and Cheng Pu warmly when they arrived to pay their respect at his camp. Not really confident that Zhou Yu could beat Cao Cao, Liu Bei asked Zhou Yu “To resist Cao Cao, we need strategies. How many troops do you have?”

Zhou Yu replied “30,000 infantry and marine in total”

Liu Bei sighted “I regret that it too few”

Zhou Yu then said confidently “30,000 are more than sufficient, YuZhou (Liu Bei’s other name) could observed how I overcome such odd.”

This is again Pei's annotation with ref. to Jiang Biao Zhuan and not Chen Shou's original work.

Han Xin wrote:Knowing that Liu Bei did not have the confident in the alliance beating Cao Cao and only try to make up an excuse to avoid engaging in battle, Zhou Yu was still happy to follow Liu Bei suggestion. Liu Bei took all of his force and set up camp more than 30km south of the YangXi River.

I'm afraid this is your personal interpretation again.

Han Xin wrote:Zhou Yu realized that Cao Cao’s troops are from the north and they are exhausted after many years of constant warfare so he decided to use attrition tactics to wear down the morale of Cao Cao’s men.

What attrition tactics did Zhou Yu use??

Han Xin wrote:Knowing that his force were mainly from the north and not use to naval warfare, Cao Cao decided to link his ship together to make all his ship more stable so his soldiers would not get sick. Knowing this Huang Gai, a general who followed the Sun family for three generation, suggested using fire to burn the entire northern fleet.

This is indeed from SGZ.

Han Xin wrote:Zhou Yu believe that a fire attack without any co-ordinate raid on the northern camp would not be decisive and that winter is a season of unfavorable wind so he initially rejected Huang Gai’s plan of fire attack.

However one day while strolling on the bank of the YangXi, Zhou Yu saw an old fisherman and started a casual conversation with him. After a short period, the old fisherman realized that Zhou Yu was a humble person and that Sun Quan was a generous and benevolent ruler so the fisherman decided to help Zhou Yu. The fisherman told Zhou Yu that favorable wind would blow for 3 days in winter without fail and told Zhou Yu the exact date that the wind would start blowing.


Where did you get all these from?? It's sounded like a Wu propaganda made up by a Wu fanatic. hehehe.. :D


Han Xin wrote:Although Cao Cao’s force stationed on land does not suffer large number of fatality, however Zhou Yu’s raided inflicted deep-cut wound on a large number of northern soldiers.

Zhou Yu's raid?? It's the raid launched by the alliance.


Han Xin wrote:Zhou Yu realizing that Cao Cao is retreating ordered his troop to pursued to JiangLing. At Liu Bei’s camp, after realizing that Zhou Yu had crushed Cao Cao at ChiBi, Liu Bei decided to join the Cao Cao chase to JiangLing. At the foot of JiangLing, Zhou Yu and Liu Bei meet and began to set a siege on the city. Seeing that the situation had become too dangerous, Cao Cao flee back to XuChang and ordered one of his best commander, Cao Ren, to defense JiangLing by all mean necessary.

You seems to have distorted a lot of these account by replacing the word "alliance" with "Zhou Yu". hehehehe.. :D

Han Xin wrote:Knowing that Cao Ren would keep Zhou Yu preoccupied for awhile, Liu Bei suggested to Zhou Yu to continue keeping up the siege of JiangLing while he and his generals, Guan Yu and Zhang Fei, would attacked Cao Cao’s other remaining prefectures in JingZhou (ChangSha, WuLing, GuiLing, and LingLing) to stop any re-enforcement reaching JiangLing. Although knowing this is just an excuse Liu Bei used to weaseling territories from Wu, Zhou Yu still agree to the arrangement realizing the great strategic important of JiangLing.

Zhou Yu was left with no choice. His forces could not overcome Jiang Ling and Gan Ning was trapped by Wei's armies.

Han Xin wrote:Initially, Cao Ren did his job well in defending JiangLing. For about a year Zhou Yu could not captured JiangLing, however, by using Gan Ning as a decoyed to lure Cao Ren out of JingLing, Zhou Yu manage beat Cao Ren and force him to retreat to the north.

hahaha..what a distortion! Gan Ning was trapped by Wei's troops. He was not a decoy. On learning that he was trapped, Zhou Yu and Cheng Pu became frightened (Lu Meng's bio in SGZ).

Han Xin wrote:Okay, I am waiting for the comments and abused from you guys...

I've done my part to dispute your claim of historical accuracy for your account. You have mixed Pei's annotations, Jiang Biao Zhuan, SGZ and your own words into the whole passage and as mentioned by Lance, it was indeed pro-Wu. :wink:

Anyway, I have some figures to show that Liu Bei's actual involvement in Chi Bi was quite little. :D
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Re: Wu: The Lone Warrior of ChiBi.

Unread postby Han Xin » Sun Jul 28, 2002 6:28 am

Great Deer wrote:Firstly, I must say that most of the contents are taken from Pei's annotations if I'm not wrong.


Han Xin wrote:ChiBi - SGZ Chen Shou orginal, HuaiYin Hou's version :mrgreen:

No, please don't put Chen Shou's original when it is not.



Hey, I did call it HuaiYin Hou's version.

Great Deer wrote:
Han Xin wrote:In 208AD after destroying his rival in the north, Cao Cao already eyeing on the south made a sweep move for JingZhou. Setting out from XuChang with more than 200,000 foots and cavalries, Cao Cao determined to force Liu Bei out of Xin Ye. Seeing that his force were severely outnumbered, Liu Bei decided to abandon Xin Ye and force the good people of Xin Ye to go with him to act as a mobile human shield for his troops.

Mobile human shield?? I guess these words come from yourself. hehehe.. :D


What do you think the purposed of letting civilian in the retreating force for?


Great Deer wrote:
Han Xin wrote:Feeling that he had gained the entire land of JingZhou relatively easy, Cao Cao felt very confident of doing the same to Sun Quan’s controlled Yang and personally wrote a letter to Sun Quan to seek Sun Quan submission.

While at Liu Qi’s camped at JiangXia, Liu Bei realized that without the help of Sun Quan, Cao Cao would soon have the entire empire under his hand so Liu Bei send his chief advisor, Zhuge Liang, to ChaiSang to seek an alliance with Sun Quan. At Sun Quan’s power base in ChaiSang, a letter arrived from Cao Cao. After reading the contents of Cao Cao’s letter, Sun Quan was very worry about opposing Cao Cao and asked his military and civil officers for suggestion on what to do. Many of Sun Quan’s civil officers suggested Sun Quan to submit to Cao Cao to save the land of JiangDong from bloodshed. Sun Quan was very disheartened and does not know what he should do. One of his servant told him that an officer of Liu Bei by the name of Zhuge Liang had arrived at ChaiSang and wished to seek an audience with Sun Quan. Sun Quan agreed and invited Zhuge Liang in.

If I'm not wrong, it was Sun Quan who dispatched Lu Su to meetup with Liu Bei first because Sun Quan was afraid of Cao Cao's southern incursion (Lu Su's bio).


From Zhuge Liang's bio, it was Liu Bei that send Zhuge Liang to Sun Quan first.


Great Deer wrote:
Han Xin wrote:Zhuge Liang used words to provoke Sun Quan into war against Cao Cao, however, knowing this was a trick Sun Quan decided to wait for his most trusted general by the name of Zhou Yu to return from the naval camp.

This is just your personal interpretation.

Han Xin wrote:Zhou Yu arrived at ChaiSang and quickly seek an audience from Sun Quan. Zhou Yu advice Sun Quan to opposed Cao Cao and after a detailed analytical report on Cao Cao’s troops strength and weakness, Sun Quan was very confident that Zhou Yu could beat Cao Cao and made Zhou Yu the Chief commander of his army.

Sun Quan was not really that confident. In fact, it was mentioned in Zhou Yu's bio with ref. to Jiang Bio Zhuan that Sun Quan suggested to Zhou Yu that Zhou Yu should retreat if he faced difficulties and let he himself deal with Cao Cao.


Well, from Zhou Yu and Zhuge Liang's bio. Which one had more analysis on the opposition army? Which guy do you think showed you that he know more about the enemy? From what I could readed in Zhuge Liang's bio, it offerred no military analysis on Cao Cao's troops. I doubt Zhuge Liang word could persuade anyone from going to battle.

Great Deer wrote:
Han Xin wrote:Liu Bei greeted Zhou Yu and Cheng Pu warmly when they arrived to pay their respect at his camp. Not really confident that Zhou Yu could beat Cao Cao, Liu Bei asked Zhou Yu “To resist Cao Cao, we need strategies. How many troops do you have?”

Zhou Yu replied “30,000 infantry and marine in total”

Liu Bei sighted “I regret that it too few”

Zhou Yu then said confidently “30,000 are more than sufficient, YuZhou (Liu Bei’s other name) could observed how I overcome such odd.”


This is again Pei's annotation with ref. to Jiang Biao Zhuan and not Chen Shou's original work.


Yes this is taken from Jiang Biao Zhuan. It showed why Liu Bei decided not to engage in battle.

Great Deer wrote:
Han Xin wrote:Knowing that Liu Bei did not have the confident in the alliance beating Cao Cao and only try to make up an excuse to avoid engaging in battle, Zhou Yu was still happy to follow Liu Bei suggestion. Liu Bei took all of his force and set up camp more than 30km south of the YangXi River.

I'm afraid this is your personal interpretation again.


This is not my personal interpretation. Liu Bei's and his croonies when missing for the entire ChiBi campaign. It a perfect explaination for it. I had another version that mock what they did during this whole time, but since this is a serious discussion, I don't think it right for it.

Great Deer wrote:
Han Xin wrote:Zhou Yu realized that Cao Cao’s troops are from the north and they are exhausted after many years of constant warfare so he decided to use attrition tactics to wear down the morale of Cao Cao’s men.

What attrition tactics did Zhou Yu use??.


He didn't offerred a land battle against Cao Cao knowing that being outnumber more than 8-1, it is suicidal. So instead, he use Wu great naval strength to stop any Cao Cao attemp to cross the river.

Great Deer wrote:
Han Xin wrote:Zhou Yu believe that a fire attack without any co-ordinate raid on the northern camp would not be decisive and that winter is a season of unfavorable wind so he initially rejected Huang Gai’s plan of fire attack.

However one day while strolling on the bank of the YangXi, Zhou Yu saw an old fisherman and started a casual conversation with him. After a short period, the old fisherman realized that Zhou Yu was a humble person and that Sun Quan was a generous and benevolent ruler so the fisherman decided to help Zhou Yu. The fisherman told Zhou Yu that favorable wind would blow for 3 days in winter without fail and told Zhou Yu the exact date that the wind would start blowing.


Where did you get all these from?? It's sounded like a Wu propaganda made up by a Wu fanatic. hehehe.. :D


Well Zhou Yu did know about the east wind from the fisherman.

Great Deer wrote:
Han Xin wrote:Although Cao Cao’s force stationed on land does not suffer large number of fatality, however Zhou Yu’s raided inflicted deep-cut wound on a large number of northern soldiers.

Zhou Yu's raid?? It's the raid launched by the alliance.


Han Xin wrote:Zhou Yu realizing that Cao Cao is retreating ordered his troop to pursued to JiangLing. At Liu Bei’s camp, after realizing that Zhou Yu had crushed Cao Cao at ChiBi, Liu Bei decided to join the Cao Cao chase to JiangLing. At the foot of JiangLing, Zhou Yu and Liu Bei meet and began to set a siege on the city. Seeing that the situation had become too dangerous, Cao Cao flee back to XuChang and ordered one of his best commander, Cao Ren, to defense JiangLing by all mean necessary.

You seems to have distorted a lot of these account by replacing the word "alliance" with "Zhou Yu". hehehehe.. :D


I am not distorting anything. Give me an account of Liu Bei's troops number during the battle of ChiBi. Sorry there was none, because Liu Bei never bring anyone to battle, he himself never was at ChiBi. The only confirmation of his where about is at JiangLing, after Cao Cao had retreat.


Great Deer wrote:
Han Xin wrote:Knowing that Cao Ren would keep Zhou Yu preoccupied for awhile, Liu Bei suggested to Zhou Yu to continue keeping up the siege of JiangLing while he and his generals, Guan Yu and Zhang Fei, would attacked Cao Cao’s other remaining prefectures in JingZhou (ChangSha, WuLing, GuiLing, and LingLing) to stop any re-enforcement reaching JiangLing. Although knowing this is just an excuse Liu Bei used to weaseling territories from Wu, Zhou Yu still agree to the arrangement realizing the great strategic important of JiangLing.

Zhou Yu was left with no choice. His forces could not overcome Jiang Ling and Gan Ning was trapped by Wei's armies.

Han Xin wrote:Initially, Cao Ren did his job well in defending JiangLing. For about a year Zhou Yu could not captured JiangLing, however, by using Gan Ning as a decoyed to lure Cao Ren out of JingLing, Zhou Yu manage beat Cao Ren and force him to retreat to the north.

hahaha..what a distortion! Gan Ning was trapped by Wei's troops. He was not a decoy. On learning that he was trapped, Zhou Yu and Cheng Pu became frightened (Lu Meng's bio in SGZ).


Well, it does look like a decoy to me. That the only move that force Cao Ren to move out of JiangLing and allowed Zhou Yu to beat him.

Great Deer wrote:
Han Xin wrote:Okay, I am waiting for the comments and abused from you guys...

I've done my part to dispute your claim of historical accuracy for your account. You have mixed Pei's annotations, Jiang Biao Zhuan, SGZ and your own words into the whole passage and as mentioned by Lance, it was indeed pro-Wu. :wink:

Anyway, I have some figures to show that Liu Bei's actual involvement in Chi Bi was quite little. :D


You said that I change the word "alliance" to "Zhou Yu", yet from most of the bios I readed regarding ChiBi said nothing about about Liu Bei involvement until the seige at JiangLing. There were no accound of Liu Bei's force at all either in his own bio, his advisor bio, or any of his generals. The only troops number that was confirm was Wu's 30,000. So how could anyone said that Liu Bei and his people did anything at all?
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Unread postby Dennis » Sun Jul 28, 2002 6:57 am

Han Xin you would have had me totally bought if you hasn't said Xuande used the people of Xin Ye as a human shield.

That just makes it sound more like anti-Shu propaganda, than pro-Wu...

Still think Zhou Yu is da bomb diggy though... :P
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Unread postby Lance » Sun Jul 28, 2002 2:34 pm

Nice try Han Xin......seeing as it's on the same level as your interpretation of a pretty accurate interpretation of an accurate account of history, I'll take from SGYY, which clearly states that the people of Xin Ye followed Liu Bei and needed no prompting to do so :lol:
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Unread postby Pang Shiyuan » Sun Jul 28, 2002 10:12 pm

I agree with Han Xin to a certain extent.

Liu Bei never did anything at Chibi, the only notable "achievement" he had there was post-Chibi, where he sneakily captured the Southern Jing provinces, Wu Ling, Ying Ling, Gui Yang and Chang Sha (i think), whilst Zhou Yu was busy trying to lure Cao Ren out of Jiang Ling.

However, if the people of Xin Ye was used by Liu Bei as a human shield, that would impede the movement of his troops and allow Cao's army to catch up. Clearly, the minor skirmish at Chang Pan was disastrous for Liu Bei, not only did he lose his men, he very nearly lost his wife Lady Mi, although the loss of Liu Shan is no big matter :D.

Basically, Zhou Yu and Huang Gai should be given the credit for Cao's defeat at Chibi. Huang Gai formulated the fire attack plan, while Zhou Yu managed to persuade Sun Quan to resist.

Let's just say Liu Bei happened to be at the "right place at the right time" after the battle of Chibi, haha.

Just a note: In a book I read (based on SGZ, and bits of SGYY), the change in wind direction at Chibi was accredited to Zhou Yu seeking the advice of the local fishermen. But I'm still not sure if that was exactly what happened.
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Re: Wu: The Lone Warrior of ChiBi.

Unread postby Mega Zarak » Mon Jul 29, 2002 4:14 am

Han Xin wrote:Hey, I did call it HuaiYin Hou's version.

But it's not Chen Shou's original right?? That person added stuffs to the original version. Of cos, I'm not saying that Chen Shou's original version speaks the entire truth.

Han Xin wrote:What do you think the purposed of letting civilian in the retreating force for?

I think it is for human shield too. But, it is not stated in SGZ or Pei's annotations or even Hou Han Shu.


Han Xin wrote:
Well, from Zhou Yu and Zhuge Liang's bio. Which one had more analysis on the opposition army? Which guy do you think showed you that he know more about the enemy? From what I could readed in Zhuge Liang's bio, it offerred no military analysis on Cao Cao's troops. I doubt Zhuge Liang word could persuade anyone from going to battle.

Zhuge Liang mentioned about Cao Cao's weaknesses too and it was a military analysis. In fact, he did that before Zhou Yu put up his and if I'm pro-Shu, I could even say that Zhou Yu copied Kongming's analysis. hahahaha...
Anyway, still it's just your own interpretation. hehehe.. :D

Han Xin wrote:This is not my personal interpretation. Liu Bei's and his croonies when missing for the entire ChiBi campaign. It a perfect explaination for it. I had another version that mock what they did during this whole time, but since this is a serious discussion, I don't think it right for it.

This is the stand you are taking in starting this post and hence, it is your interpretation. We are debating on the role of the alliance and if the statement you made is conclusive, I don't think there is any point in debating here. hehehe.. :D


Han Xin wrote:Well Zhou Yu did know about the east wind from the fisherman.

I'm just interested to know the source. Thanks. :D


Han Xin wrote:I am not distorting anything. Give me an account of Liu Bei's troops number during the battle of ChiBi. Sorry there was none, because Liu Bei never bring anyone to battle, he himself never was at ChiBi. The only confirmation of his where about is at JiangLing, after Cao Cao had retreat.

It is stated very clearly in Zhou Yu's bio that Sun Quan dispatched Zhou Yu and Cheng Pu to meet Liu Bei and all three met Cao Cao at Chi Bi. At that time, Cao Cao's army was already stricken with illnesses and in the first engagement, Cao Cao's was defeated. Liu Bei played a role in the first engagement at Chi Bi. He did not play any role in the burning of Cao's ships and naval camp at Wu Ling. The actual battle was in two phase and Liu Bei did get himself involved in the first one.


Han Xin wrote:Well, it does look like a decoy to me. That the only move that force Cao Ren to move out of JiangLing and allowed Zhou Yu to beat him.

Anyway, this is not about the battle of Chi Bi but still I would like to say that Gan Ning was dispatched more like a vanguard to capture the city of Yiling (he himself suggested that if I'm not wrong). He did that and got himself surrounded by Cao Ren. It was clearly not a decoy as the top commanders were very worried when they heard of Gan Ning being surrounded. It was thanks to Lu Meng that the siege was lifted and Cao Ren was subsequently beaten off.

Han Xin wrote:You said that I change the word "alliance" to "Zhou Yu", yet from most of the bios I readed regarding ChiBi said nothing about about Liu Bei involvement until the seige at JiangLing. There were no accound of Liu Bei's force at all either in his own bio, his advisor bio, or any of his generals. The only troops number that was confirm was Wu's 30,000. So how could anyone said that Liu Bei and his people did anything at all?


No doubt, Liu Bei played a minor role as compared to Wu's forces in the battle of Chi Bi. However, it was not right to say that he did nothing at all. In the bio of Zhuge Liang and Guan Yu, it was stated that Sun Quan dispatched armies to assist Liu Bei to resist Cao Cao. (I'm not pro-Shu hence I said it was "alliance"). Since you don't have the Wu books, I would just like to say that Liu Bei's name was mentioned in Sun Quan's bio, Jiang Biao Zhuan and some other bio too. Hence, I get the impression that you have substituted "alliance" with "Zhou Yu" or "Wu". Anyway, I didn't say that Liu Bei contribute a lot of troops. However, in a battle, the number of troops is just one of the many factors in ensuring a victory. :D
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Re: Wu: The Lone Warrior of ChiBi.

Unread postby Han Xin » Mon Jul 29, 2002 12:50 pm

Great Deer wrote:
Han Xin wrote:Hey, I did call it HuaiYin Hou's version.

But it's not Chen Shou's original right?? That person added stuffs to the original version. Of cos, I'm not saying that Chen Shou's original version speaks the entire truth.


True, ofcourse only Jiang Biao Zhuan come close to the truth. :wink:

Great Deer wrote:
Han Xin wrote:This is not my personal interpretation. Liu Bei's and his croonies when missing for the entire ChiBi campaign. It a perfect explaination for it. I had another version that mock what they did during this whole time, but since this is a serious discussion, I don't think it right for it.

This is the stand you are taking in starting this post and hence, it is your interpretation. We are debating on the role of the alliance and if the statement you made is conclusive, I don't think there is any point in debating here. hehehe.. :D


Well, even HouHan Shu never mention about Liu Bei at ChiBi, and as far as I know, that book was never pro-Wu. It state clearly that general Zhou Yu who defeated Cao Cao at Wulin and ChiBi.

Great Deer wrote:
Han Xin wrote:Well Zhou Yu did know about the east wind from the fisherman.

I'm just interested to know the source. Thanks. :D


I believed it from Jiang Biao Zhuan.

Great Deer wrote:
Han Xin wrote:I am not distorting anything. Give me an account of Liu Bei's troops number during the battle of ChiBi. Sorry there was none, because Liu Bei never bring anyone to battle, he himself never was at ChiBi. The only confirmation of his where about is at JiangLing, after Cao Cao had retreat.

It is stated very clearly in Zhou Yu's bio that Sun Quan dispatched Zhou Yu and Cheng Pu to meet Liu Bei and all three met Cao Cao at Chi Bi. At that time, Cao Cao's army was already stricken with illnesses and in the first engagement, Cao Cao's was defeated. Liu Bei played a role in the first engagement at Chi Bi. He did not play any role in the burning of Cao's ships and naval camp at Wu Ling. The actual battle was in two phase and Liu Bei did get himself involved in the first one.


Yeah, from HuaiYin Hou's version, it did state that Zhou Yu and Cheng Pu meet Liu Bei at ChiBi, however, Liu Bei chicken out therefore left ChiBi.


Great Deer wrote:
Han Xin wrote:You said that I change the word "alliance" to "Zhou Yu", yet from most of the bios I readed regarding ChiBi said nothing about about Liu Bei involvement until the seige at JiangLing. There were no accound of Liu Bei's force at all either in his own bio, his advisor bio, or any of his generals. The only troops number that was confirm was Wu's 30,000. So how could anyone said that Liu Bei and his people did anything at all?


No doubt, Liu Bei played a minor role as compared to Wu's forces in the battle of Chi Bi. However, it was not right to say that he did nothing at all. In the bio of Zhuge Liang and Guan Yu, it was stated that Sun Quan dispatched armies to assist Liu Bei to resist Cao Cao. (I'm not pro-Shu hence I said it was "alliance"). Since you don't have the Wu books, I would just like to say that Liu Bei's name was mentioned in Sun Quan's bio, Jiang Biao Zhuan and some other bio too. Hence, I get the impression that you have substituted "alliance" with "Zhou Yu" or "Wu". Anyway, I didn't say that Liu Bei contribute a lot of troops. However, in a battle, the number of troops is just one of the many factors in ensuring a victory. :D


Oh? you don't know what I had... :twisted: However, it true that there was a mention that Zhou Yu and the army of Wu marched with Liu Bei to ChiBi (heheh...Sun Quan=Generous :lol: ). However, most of the other historical source said little about Liu Bei involvement...

About the troops number, I never said that troops were the only factor to win a great victory cos Zhou Yu already showed that 30,000 could easily beat 200,000+ troops. However, Wu's 30,000 troops was mention in Sun Quan, Zhuge Liang, and in Jiang Biao Zhuan as well, yet there was never any mention about Liu Bei force at ChiBi, IMO, that is just a crude way that Shu's historian try to grap some of the credit from Wu.
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