Wu: The Lone Warrior of ChiBi.

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Unread postby Han Xin » Tue Jul 30, 2002 6:09 am

Great Deer wrote:
Han Xin wrote:WOW....So you are saying that HouHan Shu is not one of the 25 official records of Chinese History?


Did I say that?? I mention Jiang Biao Zhuan and some of your own interpretations that's all. Anyway, you did not specify any explicit quotes from HHS and from the HHS that I've read, it did not have so much pro-Wu contents as compared to your account. hehehe...
:D


I Think you are doubting Jiang Biao Zhuan mainly because it not one of the 25 officials record. However, if you look carefully at these 25 historical records, they are all history of all the Chinese Empire during a certain period in history. Jiang Biao Zhuan was not included was not because that stuff in there was wrong or biased, it was not recognised as one of the 25 historical texts was because that it mainly the history of Wu not history of the whole China during the RTK period. I think it is absurd that one should said that the book is not relevant mainly because it was not one of the 25...

About HHS, I never see Liu Bei names mention anywhere around the passage about ChiBi. Looklike that there was a historian that accept my view.
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Unread postby Han Xin » Tue Jul 30, 2002 6:21 am

Iznoach, Legendary Dragon wrote:First off, I found several discrepencies in the initial post of Han Xin's, which I think serve to nullify a big part of your argument. You use Zhuge Liang's bio as reference to some parts, like saying that that was where you found Liu Bei sent Kongming to Sun Quan first before Sun Quan sent Lu Su. I agree with that part. Then, however you say that it don't mention any of Liu Bei's troop totals...but it does mention Guan Yu and his 10,000 elite marines. I guess you must have missed that part :wink: .


Nope, it said that Guan Yu had 10,000 during Liu Bei's eviction from Xin Ye. There were no troops number stated on both Liu Bei or Zhuge Liang's bio at ChiBi. In actual fact, Zhuge Liang put an add to Sun Quan saying that Liu Bei had 10,000 troops under Guan Yu and another 10,000 under Liu Qi.


Iznoach, Legendary Dragon wrote:Then, you also imply that Sun Quan was moved to fight after Zhuge Liang's visit, only to later state that he wasn't going to fight until speaking to Zhou Yu. Also from Zhuge's bio it states that he (Zhuge) told Sun Quan about the various weaknesses of Cao's army, which means if he was sent as envoy to Sun Quan first, then Zhou Yu must have gotten all his ideas about Cao's strength from Zhuge Liang and copied (plagiarized) them to first Sun Quan, then later Liu Bei. :lol:


Zhuge Liang and Zhou Yu never meet. It was after the meeting with Zhou Yu and Cheng Pu that Sun Quan decided to go to war, not before.

Iznoach, Legendary Dragon wrote:Another discrepency I found interesting is that you say Liu Bei moved all his forces back 30 km before the battle, yet he met Zhou Yu's forces on the road to Jiangling. How in the heck did they move that fast? Let's assume Liu Bei had a scout at the river, who rode hard back to Liu's camp after the rout on the water to tell him of the alliances victory. There would still be no way Liu's army could meet Zhou Yu's army if they were 30km's back from the river...no way. Which means that this either came from an invalid source, or your own head. :D


Nope, after Zhou Yu had force Cao Cao force to retreat, Liu Bei's scout inform him and he join the chase to Jiang Ling. The distance between ChiBi to JiangLing was greater than 30km my friend...


Iznoach, Legendary Dragon wrote:One more thing (for now); if Zhuge Liang (in SGYY) conjuring the wind is unbelievable, how about a little known fisherman foretelling the future? Which one do you believe, cause they both sound a little fishy (no pun intended) to me... :lol:


If you are a fisherman living in area for many generation, would your family know the local weather? Fisherman usually rely on tide and wind so they could manuever easily on the river. Don't you think he have a fair ideas about the local weather patten?
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Unread postby Mega Zarak » Tue Jul 30, 2002 6:27 am

Han Xin wrote:I Think you are doubting Jiang Biao Zhuan mainly because it not one of the 25 officials record. However, if you look carefully at these 25 historical records, they are all history of all the Chinese Empire during a certain period in history. Jiang Biao Zhuan was not included was not because that stuff in there was wrong or biased, it was not recognised as one of the 25 historical texts was because that it mainly the history of Wu not history of the whole China during the RTK period. I think it is absurd that one should said that the book is not relevant mainly because it was not one of the 25...

About HHS, I never see Liu Bei names mention anywhere around the passage about ChiBi. Looklike that there was a historian that accept my view.


First off, there is nothing wrong with coming up with statements from JBZ. However, to based the entire turth on one reference (which is reportedly pro-Wu, according to many contemporary RTK writers) will not give one the correct or fair picture of the situation. Furthermore, some of the account quoted was obviously not directly translated and hence the account cannot be said to be quoted from the sources you mentioned.

Anyway, HHS did not mention about Liu Bei's non-involvement nor does it imply anything for that matter. In the battle of Chi Bi (not Wu Ling), it was always the "alliance" and not "Wu". Finally, it is rather astonishing that you can discredit SGZ records (particularly the Wu's records) while making murky implications from a historical record of a later age. :D
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Unread postby Han Xin » Tue Jul 30, 2002 6:39 am

Great Deer wrote:Anyway, HHS did not mention about Liu Bei's non-involvement nor does it imply anything for that matter. In the battle of Chi Bi (not Wu Ling), it was always the "alliance" and not "Wu". Finally, it is rather astonishing that you can discredit SGZ records (particularly the Wu's records) while making murky implications from a historical record of a later age. :D


You really make me work for my thread do you? :lol:

Hou Han Shu wrote:Emperor Han Xiandi, JianAn 13year, Winter, 10th month. Cao Cao attacked Sun Quan with a naval army. Sun Quan sent out general Zhou Yu who defeated Cao Cao at Wulin and the Red Cliff.
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Unread postby Iznoach, Legendary Dragon » Tue Jul 30, 2002 6:48 am

Han Xin wrote:Nope, it said that Guan Yu had 10,000 during Liu Bei's eviction from Xin Ye. There were no troops number stated on both Liu Bei or Zhuge Liang's bio at ChiBi. In actual fact, Zhuge Liang put an add to Sun Quan saying that Liu Bei had 10,000 troops under Guan Yu and another 10,000 under Liu Qi.


Okay...and I quote from Zhuge Liang's bio from http://www.threekingdoms.cjb.net

Jack Yuan's Three Kingdoms Chronicles wrote:I have made up my mind! Other than Liu of Yuzhou there is noone who can oppose Cao Cao. But Yuzhou was recently been defeated. Can he still combat this menace?" Zhuge Liang said: "Even though Yuzhou's army was defeated at Changban, the dispersed soldiers who have returned, in addition to Guan Yu's elite marines, number ten thousand. The soldiers of Jiangxia assembled under Liu Qi also number no less than ten thousand. The host of Cao Cao have travelled from afar, and are weary and improvised. I have heard that to pursue Yuzhou, light cavalry travelled more than three hundred miles in a day and a night. This is what was meant in the phrase 'when the bolt of the powerful crossbow reached its target, it could not pierce even the thin silk of Lu.' Hence The Art of War warned against such action: 'in a forced march of fifty miles, the commander of the van will probably fall.' Moreover, the men of the north are untrained in naval warfare. Also, even though the people of Jingzhou have given in to Cao Cao, they were coerced by force and have by no means genuinely submitted. Today you, my general, can truly command your fierce generals leading tens of thousands of soldiers and working in full cooperation and unity of purpose with Yuzhou, Cao Cao's army will surely fall. After Cao Cao's army is defeated, he will surely return to the north and thus the strength of Jing and Wu will increase, thus forming the tripartite. The time to decide triumph or fall is today.' Sun Quan was greatly pleased, and subsequently sent Zhou Yu, Cheng Pu, Lu Su and others with marines numbering thirty thousand, accompanying Zhuge Liang to pay respects to the Former Lord and to join to oppose Duke Cao. Duke Cao was defeated at Red Cliffs, and led his army back to Ye. The Former Lord then absorbed Jiangnan and made Zhuge Liang Army Advisor General of the Gentlemen of the Household, superintending the three commandieries of Lingling, Guiyang and Changsha, and collecting local taxes for military purposes.


Hmmm....I put the important parts in bold, for your pleasure :lol:

Han Xin wrote:Zhuge Liang and Zhou Yu never meet. It was after the meeting with Zhou Yu and Cheng Pu that Sun Quan decided to go to war, not before.



I didn't imply that they did meet. I'm saying that Zhuge Liang spoke to Sun Quan, then Sun Quan spoke to Zhou Yu. Zhou Yu then went to meet Liu Bei, and spoke to him. Your original post agrees with me on this so far, right? Zhuge Liang told Sun Quan about the conditions of Cao's army, then Sun Quan must have told Zhou Yu these same things in their discussion, and Zhou Yu then simply repeated what he had (2nd hand) from Kongming right to Liu Bei. Whatever happened to original thought...



Han Xin wrote:Nope, after Zhou Yu had force Cao Cao force to retreat, Liu Bei's scout inform him and he join the chase to Jiang Ling. The distance between ChiBi to JiangLing was greater than 30km my friend...


well, you're the one who said he withdrew his army 30km, my friend, not me.

Han Xin wrote:If you are a fisherman living in area for many generation, would your family know the local weather? Fisherman usually rely on tide and wind so they could manuever easily on the river. Don't you think he have a fair ideas about the local weather patten?


Actually, I have a faint idea of what type of weather we might have for tomorrow, but there's no way to just up and say "we'll have a guaranteed 3 days of northwestern blowing wind sometime this winter, on these specific dates" or whatever he said. No way you can tell the weather so far into the future back then, except maybe a day or two in advance...

Also, I forgot to respond to your accusation that Liu Bei used the populace of Xin Ye as a "mobile human shield". This is ludicrous, and I would like you to post the exact text and phrasing that you got this from, please. Like someone else already said, the only thing this would accomplish would be a slow getaway...or a slaughter if Cao Cao caught up with them.
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Unread postby Mega Zarak » Tue Jul 30, 2002 7:06 am

Han Xin wrote:You really make me work for my thread do you? :lol:

Hou Han Shu wrote:Emperor Han Xiandi, JianAn 13year, Winter, 10th month. Cao Cao attacked Sun Quan with a naval army. Sun Quan sent out general Zhou Yu who defeated Cao Cao at Wulin and the Red Cliff.


hehehe..yeah. Thanks Quentin. :wink:
That's taken from HHS, volume 9, Xiao Xian Di Ji and it is exactly that sentence that I want to talk about. HHS is a historical record of Later Han dating from Guang Wu Di taking over to 220 A.D. and detailed description for events during the RTK (and even some of the earlier period of Later Han) are vague. Further to that, for RTK period, HHS is based heavily on the references that SGZ used. I for one would not believe that the sentence you quoted has shown much about Liu Bei's non-involvement given the overwhelming amount of evidents from SGZ Shu, Wu and Wei records (some of which I have provided in my earlier post) that stated otherwise. :D
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Unread postby Han Xin » Tue Jul 30, 2002 10:48 am

Iznoach, Legendary Dragon wrote:
Okay...and I quote from Zhuge Liang's bio from http://www.threekingdoms.cjb.net

I didn't imply that they did meet. I'm saying that Zhuge Liang spoke to Sun Quan, then Sun Quan spoke to Zhou Yu. Zhou Yu then went to meet Liu Bei, and spoke to him. Your original post agrees with me on this so far, right? Zhuge Liang told Sun Quan about the conditions of Cao's army, then Sun Quan must have told Zhou Yu these same things in their discussion, and Zhou Yu then simply repeated what he had (2nd hand) from Kongming right to Liu Bei. Whatever happened to original thought...


As I said, Guan Yu and Liu Qi troops number was just Zhuge Liang told Sun Quan how much troops he had, not the troops at ChiBi itself. Hmm...Check out a few more source...

SGZ- Wu - Sun Quan wrote:JianAn year 13, Liu Bei advanced to Xiakou and sent Zhuge Liang to make a proposal to Sun Quan, who had marched off Zhou Yu and Cheng Pu. At the same time, Duke Cao had newly recruited troops, and his army was strong and overwhelming. All ministers looked fearful at the rising wind and told Sun Quan to submit to Duke Cao. But the will of Zhou Yu and Cheng Pu was upright and stood at the side ofSun Quan.


SGZ- Wu - Zhou Yu wrote:In the spring of Jian An 13th year, SunQuan attacked Jiang Xia and appointed ZhouYu as the commander of the front army. During this year, CaoCao’s army invaded Jing Zhou and LiuZong, together with his officials and soldiers, surrendered to CaoCao. As such, CaoCao’s army was boosted by several tens of thousands infantry soldiers and the naval forces of Jing Zhou. This event frightened many of the generals in Jiang Dong and SunQuan gathered them to look for their opinions. The majority of the generals present thought that since CaoCao had captured Jing Zhou, the kingdom of Wu could no longer rely on its geographical advantage in the form of the river Yang Tze. Coupled with CaoCao’s infamous reputation and his previous exploits, most of the Wu generals were in favour of surrendering to CaoCao. However, ZhouYu disagreed with them and argued that CaoCao’s southern expedition had several weaknesses. Firstly, CaoCao’s northern provinces were not completely stable and he had to worry about MaChao and HanXiu at his rear (in Guan Xi). Secondly, CaoCao’s northern army was not familiar with naval combat unlike the southerners. Thirdly, the season at that moment was winter and the army of CaoCao would likely be tired due to the long matches from the north. Finally, if they were not accustomed to the climate in the south, it was likely that they would be plagued with illnesses. As such, ZhouYu felt that this was the best opportunity to capture CaoCao alive and he proposed to SunQuan for 30000 troops to be placed under his command at Xia Kou in order to defeat CaoCao. SunQuan agreed with ZhouYu’s proposal.



Iznoach, Legendary Dragon wrote:well, you're the one who said he withdrew his army 30km, my friend, not me.


Well, I said that before the battle, Liu Bei chicken out and move his camp back 30km, after Liu Bei had realised that Zhou Yu had beat Cao Cao, he join the chase to Jiang Ling.... Even ZZTJ agree with this version....

ZZTJ- Chapter 57 wrote:They advanced and met with Cao Cao at the Red Cliff. At this time, the army of Cao Cao was very numerous, but the soldiers were already weakened by a pestilence, and during the first clashes,Cao Cao suffered a defeat and withdrew his troops to the north bank of the Yangtse. Zhou Yu and the others camped at the southern bank. Zhou Yu's general Huang Gai said, "The troops of the thieves are numerous, but we are left alone; it would be difficult to hold our position for longer time. Cao Cao has tied his war-ships together. If bow and stern are firmly bound together, it is easy to burn all the ships and make him run away." Huang Gai made use of ten big war-ships, filled them with fire wood and dry reeds, soaked with oil and stuffed with fabrics. On the top he erected his flags, and provided also ships to push these burning ships forward, binding them at the stern of the burning ships. He had written a letter to Cao Cao, pretending to go over to him. At this time, a fierce wind came from the south-east, and Huang Gai moved forward with his war ships, the burning ships forward. In the middle of the Yangtse stream, he hoisted up the sails. The other fighting ships followed them. The soldiers of Cao Cao's army all left the camp to gaze at the incoming ships of Huang Gai who had pretented to desert. When the distance to Cao Cao's camp was two miles, they incended the ships at the same time. In the fierce wind, the ships immediately kept fire and rushed forward like arrows. The fire burned down Cao Cao's whole northern flot and immediately spread to the camp where the flames reaches high up to the sky. Masses of people and horses died in the flames. Zhou Yu commanded his troops, and they advanced, with the sound of thunder drums and earthquake. The northern army was badly defeated, and Cao Cao looked for a gateway for his army along the road of Huarong. Unfortunately, they came into a swampy area that made it impossible to pass through, and the wind was still very fierce. The most emaciated soldiers were ordered to collect reed and to pile it upon the swampy locations. Finally, the cavalry could pass, but under the feet of horses and men, many exhausted men were stamped to death. On land and water, Zhou Yu and Liu Bei marched forward and reached the prefecture Nanjun. Of Cao Cao's army, more than half had died of pestilence and starvation.


Iznoach, Legendary Dragon wrote:Actually, I have a faint idea of what type of weather we might have for tomorrow, but there's no way to just up and say "we'll have a guaranteed 3 days of northwestern blowing wind sometime this winter, on these specific dates" or whatever he said. No way you can tell the weather so far into the future back then, except maybe a day or two in advance...


That because your livelyhood never really rely on the weather, if you go to rural places in Asia, some of the ancient method of weather forecast were use to plan planning season and stuff.

Iznoach, Legendary Dragon wrote:Also, I forgot to respond to your accusation that Liu Bei used the populace of Xin Ye as a "mobile human shield". This is ludicrous, and I would like you to post the exact text and phrasing that you got this from, please. Like someone else already said, the only thing this would accomplish would be a slow getaway...or a slaughter if Cao Cao caught up with them.


Well, do you think that the people of Xin Ye would willingly allowed the home to be burn and followed a guy like Liu Bei? Cao Cao have cavalries in his rank, just imagine with just a few thousand foot soldiers on open ground with ten of thousand of cavalries barring down. How do you think Liu Bei army would do?

Unlest I am mistaken, there are no word for Human Shield in Chinese...
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Unread postby Mega Zarak » Tue Jul 30, 2002 5:40 pm

Han Xin wrote:
Well, I said that before the battle, Liu Bei chicken out and move his camp back 30km, after Liu Bei had realised that Zhou Yu had beat Cao Cao, he join the chase to Jiang Ling.... Even ZZTJ agree with this version....

Your quote on ZZTJ did not mention Liu Bei or Zhou Yu specifically being involved in the first clash. That is at the battle of Chi Bi and that's where Liu Bei and some of his troops were involved in one way or another (supported by SGZ sources). It is a logical fallacy to assume that certain perceptions of things simply because they are not mentioned or properly mentioned. Anyway, you are still using later historical resources (which are based on SGZ and SGZ's references) to discredit those earlier sources that I quoted (from Wu and Shu, SGZ to ensure fairness).

Generally, for other faculities such as Science or Mathematics, there is usually nothing wrong with that since new ideas can be accepted without being completely proven. However, for History, if a later author relied entirely on earlier references for his work and he did not do any actual fieldwork to support his own claims, then those new claims made by him in his book are not completely reliable.


Han Xin wrote:
That because your livelyhood never really rely on the weather, if you go to rural places in Asia, some of the ancient method of weather forecast were use to plan planning season and stuff.


Oh please. This coming from someone who is famous for discrediting Zhuge Liang's ability to forecast weather and the likes??? sigh... :(

Han Xin wrote:Well, do you think that the people of Xin Ye would willingly allowed the home to be burn and followed a guy like Liu Bei? Cao Cao have cavalries in his rank, just imagine with just a few thousand foot soldiers on open ground with ten of thousand of cavalries barring down. How do you think Liu Bei army would do?

Unlest I am mistaken, there are no word for Human Shield in Chinese...

There is. Ren Dun is the word. There is also another famous word for describing human shield in Chinese: "Dang Jian Pai". Now you are trying to convince others to believe your own words that you put in in the supposed historical quote of yours?? sigh... :(
Last edited by Mega Zarak on Wed Jul 31, 2002 4:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread postby Han Xin » Wed Jul 31, 2002 12:21 am

Great Deer wrote:Your quote on ZZTJ did not mention Liu Bei or Zhou Yu specifically being involved in the first clash. That is at the battle of Chi Bi and that's where Liu Bei and some of his troops were involved in one way or another (supported by SGZ sources). It is a logical fallacy to assume that certain perceptions of things simply because they are not mentioned or properly mentioned. Anyway, you are still using later historical resources (which are based on SGZ and SGZ's references) to discredit those earlier sources that I quoted (from Wu and Shu, SGZ to ensure fairness).

Generally, for other faculities such as Science or Mathematics, there is usually nothing wrong with that since new ideas can be accepted without being completely proven. However, for History, if a later author relied entirely on earlier references for his work and he did not did any actual fieldwork to support his own claims, then those new claims made by him in his book are not completely reliable.


Oh, that was the first clashed, before it talk about how Zhuge Liang and Zhou Yu convince Sun Quan. I'll tried to post up the whole thing when I get home tonight.


Great Deer wrote:There is. Ren Dun is the word. There is also another famous word for describing human shield in Chinese: "Dang Jian Pai". Now you are trying to convince others to believe your own words that you put in in the supposed historical quote of yours?? sigh... :(


The account in Xin Ye was only told by Shu's historian. Do you think that they would write such truth about Liu Bei?
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Unread postby Lance » Wed Jul 31, 2002 12:48 am

I've been silent long enough......I can't resist a good debate :)
The account in Xin Ye was only told by Shu's historian. Do you think they would write such truth about Liu Bei

Interesting. However, you have yet to prove it beyond your own statements on this subject. However, they conspicuously lack solid evidence. Besides, using a human shield is completely impractical. Liu Bei's army wouldn't get so far as Dang-Yang if they had such a shield in place by the time Cao's forces caught them. By the way, who might Shu's historian be?
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