Wu: The Lone Warrior of ChiBi.

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Unread postby Xiahou Mengde88 » Tue Oct 05, 2004 9:30 pm

Of course Liu Bei did nothing.

In fact, you could say that it was Cao Cao vs. Huang Gai/Kan Ze and Zhuge Liang at Chi Bi, and not Cao Cao vs. Liu Bei and Sun Quan.

In my opinion, Zhuge Liang did all of the thinking and commanding for the army of Liu Bei, while Xuande just sat by hoping that there army would be successful.

Also, many people see Zhou Yu as an extremely talented leader and commander, because of the fact that they won Chi Bi, but he really didn't do all that much to affect the outcome of the war; Although he did spread of rumor that made Cao Cao execute Cai Mao and another general, but other than that, and participating in the beating of Hugan Gai to start off the plan for the fire ploy (although it was Kan Ze's idea to do that {and of course, Huang Gai's willingness} that caused the plan to work, and not actually Zhou Yu's).

So, as I've said many times, before, Zhou Yu's role in Chi Bi went: Glare jealously at Zhuge Liang, walk over to Lu Su to pan a plot on how to kill Kongming, then be unsuccessful at the plan, then stand on a balcony and suddenly being slapped in the face by a flag, and getting sick (don't ask me about the flag part. that's what the book says.)
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Unread postby LiuBeiwasGreat » Wed Oct 06, 2004 4:15 am

Xiahou Mengde88 wrote:Of course Liu Bei did nothing.

In fact, you could say that it was Cao Cao vs. Huang Gai/Kan Ze and Zhuge Liang at Chi Bi, and not Cao Cao vs. Liu Bei and Sun Quan.

In my opinion, Zhuge Liang did all of the thinking and commanding for the army of Liu Bei, while Xuande just sat by hoping that there army would be successful.

Also, many people see Zhou Yu as an extremely talented leader and commander, because of the fact that they won Chi Bi, but he really didn't do all that much to affect the outcome of the war; Although he did spread of rumor that made Cao Cao execute Cai Mao and another general, but other than that, and participating in the beating of Hugan Gai to start off the plan for the fire ploy (although it was Kan Ze's idea to do that {and of course, Huang Gai's willingness} that caused the plan to work, and not actually Zhou Yu's).

So, as I've said many times, before, Zhou Yu's role in Chi Bi went: Glare jealously at Zhuge Liang, walk over to Lu Su to pan a plot on how to kill Kongming, then be unsuccessful at the plan, then stand on a balcony and suddenly being slapped in the face by a flag, and getting sick (don't ask me about the flag part. that's what the book says.)


Actually thinking about the novel i kinda have to agree in a way. I don't remember Zhou Yu really doing much besides the plot with the two Cai brothers
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Unread postby Lu Kang » Mon Oct 18, 2004 1:02 am

For Exar Kun:

Originally posted by Sun Bofu at 3K Frontier
Revisiting ChiBi

ChiBi is regarded as one of the most confusing events recorded in SGZ. A lot of people try to make arguments that one side is correct and the others are wrong. This line of reasoning perpetuates the idea that ChiBi is confusing; however, when all the facts are laid out the pieces of the puzzle do fit. It is not an enigma but rather the view points from three different sides. Cao Cao thought that he was defeated by who he thought was the stronger (Liu Bei) yet from the sides of Wu and Shu it was a great defeat by the alliance. Now to put the pieces together.

1. Liu Bei and Zhou Yu (with Cheng Pu) faced Cao Cao at ChiBi

This is quite easy to prove. Every single bio that deals with Chi Bi says that Liu Bei and Sun Quan was there (with the exception of a few one liners in Wu bios). There was definitely an alliance going on and they worked together

Bios: Liu Bei, Zhuge Liang, Sun Quan, Zhou Yu, Cheng Yu, Lu Su

2. Liu Bei and Zhou Yu had equal power

This is something else that is important that no one side had anymore power than the other necessarily. There are no bios to suggest that any side had more power than the other. In fact is seemed very much as the two co-operated quite well with equal power.

Bios: Liu Bei, Sun Quan, Zhou Yu, Zhuge Liang

3. Cao Cao and his Generals did not think of Sun Quan as a threat

In Cheng Yu’s bio there are discussions about Sun Quan. Overall they did not see Sun Quan as a threat by himself at all and did not see him as one to stand up to anyone. Cheng Yu put it quite frankly, “Sun Quan is newly enthroned and has yet to be feared. Our lord Cao Cao is matchless under heaven, since holding Jingzhou, Jiangbiao trembles at his might, Sun Quan may have plans but cannot hold his own.” So it is no surprise that Cao Cao did not mention Wu’s forces at all.

Bios: Cheng Yu

4. Liu Bei AND Zhou Yu defeated Cao Cao at ChiBi

This is one that seems to have some trouble but once again the bios are quite clear looking at Liu Bei’s and Zhou Yu’s. The forces combined and gave Cao Cao his initial defeat at Chi Bi. Cao Cao thus crossed the river. This is quite clear and this event happened at Chi Bi or the southern bank. Even Zhou Yu’s bio says that Liu Bei was a participant.

Bios: Zhou Yu, Liu Bei, Sun Quan, Zhuge Liang, Cheng Yu, Cao Cao [Mentioning Chi Bi but not Zhou Yu]

5. Fire was used by the Alliance (in some capacity)

The main defeat was done by fire. While many bios mention a defeat for Cao Cao the actual details of it would be a fire burning. This is told in detail in Zhou Yu’s bio, but that will be brought up later.

Bios: Liu Bei, Zhou Yu, Huang Gai

6. Cao Cao was defeated at Wu Lin after Chi Bi

Yes, the final attack on Cao Cao that made him retreat occurred at Wu Lin, or the northern bank of the river. This is one thing that many people do not know. While many bios just refer to “Cao Cao getting defeated at Chi Bi” the final assault happened at Wu Lin. It is no surprise that usually only Chi Bi or Wu Lin is used, this is due to the fact that they were on opposite sides of the river and hence, a naval battle could technically claim to be from either side. Also as shown there were defeats at both locations. The very details of intial defeats at Chi Bi then Cao Cao falling back to Wu Lin are described in Zhou Yu’s bio.

Bios: Zhou Yu, Lu Meng, Zhou Tai, Gan Ning, Cheng Pu

7. Cao Cao was burned at Wu Lin by Huang Gai

This is not only combining the ideas shown above but also bringing in what was explicitly stated in Zhou Yu’s and Huang Gai’s bios. Huang Gai made like he was going to defect then burned Cao Cao’s ships. As seen with the progression above the bios do in fact line up and there is quite enough to show that there was involvement at Wu Lin. Now only Wu bios mention Wu Lin, this does not mean it is incorrect but rather only in Wu bios was it worth mentioning because Huang Gai (with only a small force) had any action at Wu Lin.

Bios: Zhou Yu, Huang Gai

8. Cao Cao was severely defeated

This comes from the fact that A) he burned his remaining ships and B) he was chased and pursued to Nanjun. This comes from such bios as Sun Quan (burning remaining), Liu Bei (chase & pursue) and Zhou Yu (pursue). Cao Cao would not burn his ships if he could withdraw on his own time.

Bios: Liu Bei, Sun Quan, Zhou Yu

9. Cao Cao’s forces were suffering from disease and starvation, which is a main cause of retreat.

Even before the minor skirmishes at Chi Bi Cao Cao’s forces were having trouble with illness (Zhou Yu’s bio). A good number already taken ill. After the attacks and destruction of the fleet the epidemic really hit high heights. There were also accounts that the men suffered from starvation (Sun Quan’s bio). This also all happened before Cao Cao got to Nanjun, which is further proof that the troops were severely defeated. The disease however, does not change the fact that Cao Cao’s fleet was sorely defeated, but it did greatly help the forces be defeated and chased to Nanjun.

Bios: Cao Cao, Liu Bei, Sun Quan, Zhou Yu

The Puzzle Pieces together:
1. Cao Cao came to Chi Bi to find an alliance between Sun Quan and Liu Bei
2. Zhou Yu and Liu Bei had equal power
3. They engaged and defeated Cao Cao at Chibi
4. Cao Cao was further attacked at Wu Lin with fire
5. Huang Gai was the one to lead the fire attack
6. Cao Cao suffering from epidemic, starvation, and burnt navy, burns remaining navy and goes to leave
7. Liu Bei and Zhou Yu chase him to Nanjun

Now also to answer a few questions before they get asked.

Cao Cao’s bio?

This is quite easy to clear up. Every other bio goes against this. Not a single bio agrees with what his bio says. Furthermore, it is a known fact that Cao Cao and his generals did not think that Sun Quan was very strong. His bio is just his perspective which was that Liu Bei was in charge, which as shown by various other bios, was not true. Cao Cao’s bio isn’t just an error but rather what they thought, which happened to be a mistake.

Wu bios are too descriptive they can’t possible be correct!

This is a misconception. Just because they are descriptive does not mean that they are incorrect. All the bios line up quite nicely and the only descriptive part is the description of the fire. All the other parts are just in nice standard form. Now Chen Shou, while he did write bios from their own respective kingdom bios, did not feel as though that passage was too descriptive or was incorrect to put in. Furthermore, if Zhou Yu’s bio is wrong it means that many more bios are wrong because his bio states many things that are stated in other bios.
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Unread postby PrimeMinister Bu Zhi » Mon Oct 18, 2004 7:57 pm

I disagree that they had equal power. Zhou Yu had 30,000 men with the potential 20,000 reinforcements. Liu Bei AND Liu Qi had 20,000. Obviously, one side is more powerfull then the other but that's only numerical wise. Merits and deeds are another thing. As for morale, Liu Bei was just utturly defeated at Changban, meanwhile, Zhou Yu successfully debated at the Wu courts to show that his army could be superior.

The things that need to be argued are:

Who did what? Who did the fire attack, who hurt Cao Cao more, who attacked him first, who won the debate at the Wu courts.
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Unread postby Exar Kun » Mon Oct 18, 2004 8:22 pm

Lu Kang wrote:For Exar Kun:


You know,you posted that like you didn't know that I've been a Frontier member longer than you.Like I haven't posted in that very same thread.
What you wrote there back then was nothing new,it was simply you organzing everything into one post.

Your theories and conclusions make no more sense there than they did when you announced them before.

If you want to use Zhou Yu's bio as a source then I am certainly free to use the far more prominent bio of Cao Cao to refute it.
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Unread postby Lu Kang » Mon Oct 18, 2004 9:02 pm

Exar Kun wrote:You know,you posted that like you didn't know that I've been a Frontier member longer than you.Like I haven't posted in that very same thread.
What you wrote there back then was nothing new,it was simply you organzing everything into one post.

Your theories and conclusions make no more sense there than they did when you announced them before.


This is in repsone to a post I made in the unarchive section.

If you want to use Zhou Yu's bio as a source then I am certainly free to use the far more prominent bio of Cao Cao to refute it.



Have you missed the whole thing I posted? Zhou Yu's bio agrees with EVERY OTHER one. Cao Cao's bio DISAGREES with EVERY OTHER SINGLE ONE. Invlcuding other Wei bios. TO use Cao Cao's bio to refute what both WU AND SHU bios say would be like me using JBZ to refute what Shu and Wei said on any topic. It would be ridiculous, especially since other Wei bios contradict the line in Cao Cao's bio. I've already proven that the line is wrong, you've never ever been able to show a scrap of evidence on how it can be relaible and time and time again take the already proven wrong line over Wei Bios, Shu Bios, and Wu Bios that all say the same thing. Unless you can prove all the other bios wrong that all state the same basic information your claim is just as good as if I said we should take JBZ's ChiBi.
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Unread postby PrimeMinister Bu Zhi » Mon Oct 18, 2004 10:27 pm

BTW, would you happen to know where I can find Cheng Yu's bio?


As for Zhou Yu, his bio agrees with a lot of other ones. The only thing that it disagrees on is the debate at Wu courts, between Zhuge Liang and Lu Su, and the battle of Chibi, between Liu Bei and Cao Cao.

For the Wu courts, I think it's very safe to say that Zhuge Liang or Lu Su first stated their points which where working, then Zhou Yu came. Zhou Yu stated his points, after all of these, Sun Quan agreed. Also, the JBZ night meeting between Sun Quan and Zhou Yu easily fits in with every single bio that mentions Chibi. So I would say that's how it all happened. Lu Su's and Zhuge Liang's bio never said that their debate was the final arguement that convinced Quan. They probably didn't mention Zhou Yu because the focus is Lu Su and Zhuge Liang and they are supposed to look good in their bios, not Zhou Yu.

So, do we all agree that all three presented their arguements, Zhou Yu's was presented last and after all three Sun Quan chopped the desk and had the night meeting with Zhou Yu to discuss the battle.

Now, as for the battle. In the initial engagement, that is apparently the battle of Chibi. The fire attack is Wulin. Now, in Chibi, Zhou Yu and Liu Bei defended agianst Cao Cao and pushed him back north together. Then, Zhou Yu launched the fire attack on Wulin. The reason why Cao Cao's or Liu Bei's bio states that Liu Bei defeated him at Chibi, is because the fire attack was at Wulin, not Chibi, thus the sources are baised towards their respective officers. Other Wei bios mention Zhou Yu, thus it must be both Liu Bei and Zhou Yu. Then, Cao Cao's bio mentions him burning his own ships at Wulin, while Wu SGZ mentions them burning Cao Cao. I think it was both, Cao Cao's fleet was being burned by Zhou Yu's armies, so Cao Cao basicly decided to retreat but burned the rest of his ships because he could not bring them with him and defend fro pursuit and abondoning them would mean Wu gets them.

Now, can we all agree that the combined Liu and Zhou forces defeated Cao Cao at Chibi, then Zhou Yu's force attacked Wulin with fire and Cao Cao saw he had no chance and burned the remainder of his fleet.


I've done my part. The main problem is that we see Wulin and Chibi as the same engagement, but it wasn't veiwed that way in SGZ thus we get mixed up. Please respond to the bold.
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Unread postby Exar Kun » Sun Oct 31, 2004 4:55 pm

Continuing from this thread

Lu Kang wrote:Pei Song also noted about that Author's work was , "crude, random, false and nonsensical". Don't bother trying to quote such terrible sources as that.


Then I suppose you could quote that when I bring it up then.


Lu Kang wrote:Pei Song added the notes at the same time that HHS was written. So every single source PEi Song had access to was availible for use in HHS, including all those Pro-Shu and pro-Wei records.


So what?Pei's notes are hardly infallible.Neither are those of the people who wrote HHS.The core material they would all be using is still SGZ.That the writers of HHS would simply lift the Wu story out is irrelevant just as it was irrelevant when Sima Guang did it.

Lu Kang wrote:Cao Cao has no reason to lie? Why don't Wei biops mention a fire attack? Loss of fleet? Heavy Losses? Wu Lin? It't because their covering up their true defeat that happened at Wu Lin that destroyed their fleet and was executed solely by Huang Gai and Wu.


For the same reason every kingdom bio doesn't bother spending a long paragraph writing about their defeats.It can be seen with all three kingdoms.Strangely enough,it seems that the glory of Shu/Wu/Wei is not best served by giving a play by play on their defeats.

Why doesn't Sun Quan go into great detail at He Fei,not that nonesense about Ling Tong and such,but about Zhang Liao so precisely making him look like a fool.Why doesn't he give details on his blunder at Xiang Yang?Why doesn't Cao Cao tell us about how his crossing the river is stopped by Ma Chao?Why won't Liu Bei show us every step the fool he was made of in the north?

Do be quiet about Wulin Bofu.

Lu Kang wrote:Unless you have some secret book that you read from, you're arguement is no more than made up stuff that directly goes against Wei Bios, Shu Bios, and Wu Bios. Exar we use SGZ because it is the official history of the time period. It has what really happened. A single bio does not represent every single thing. Cao Cao's bio is not taken over everything else. It had things that are blatantly wrong in more than one way (He Fei) they leave out important people of things (No Wu in the loss of Jingzhou) and the official Wei histories had things that directly contradict it.


Perhaps if Liu Bei's and Zhou Yu's bios both agreed 100% or didn't have the holes between them it might be alright to dismiss Cao Cao's bio.But they do have holes.Once again I must mention the infamous raging inferno that makes nuclear explosions look petty.The raging inferno that is completely out of whack with Cao Cao's military movements and doesn't even coincide with Liu Bei's bio.
Once again I must wonder,if this plan went off so well,why didn't Zhou Yu catch Cao Cao?That was his primary objective.Why was Liu Bei the only person even close to catching Cao Cao when supposedly Liu Bei should have been awed by the fact that Wu dropped an inferno on Wei and had to wake his men up.

Luminaire wrote:The only thing you're really relying on to back your claims on is Cao Cao's SGZ bio. Can you honestly tell me that you don't believe that there is any incentive for to diminish in scope Cao Cao's greatest defeat? There is every reason to lie, justify or otherwise mislead about what truly happened.


Is there not GREATER reason for Wu to lie?Wu lied it's entire career.They lied to Liu Bei,to Cao Cao,to themselves.Do they need to tell their people that Liu Bei saved them from Wei's iron hand?Or is it better for them to exaggerrate their own role in order to keep morale high?

Luminaire wrote:As myself and others have been saying, SGZ is rife with propaganda. It makes no sense to rely on source that whose attachment to the subject at hand hurts its ability to stay unbiased and fair.


Of course SGZ is rife with propaganda.A prime example is found in Zhou Yu's bio.No one had greater motive to lie than Wu.

Luminaire wrote:Cao Cao's bio doesn't even mention the fire attack. He doesn't even mention Zhou Yu or Cheng Pu's attacks. This is especially odd considering that both had far more troops than Lei Bei did. For whatever reason they decided to minimize many of Wu's contributions.


Look at my previous statement to Lu Kang.Minimizing mention of defeats in a kingdom norm for everybody.They try to get it over with as quick as possible.See all the examples I listed.

Luminaire wrote:I won't argue physics against physicists. Likewise I won't argue history with historians. The best thing to do would be to quote like credible sources. My own words and interpretations wouldn't amount to much in such a discussion.


Physics is based on fact,unassailable fact.You try to argue the the theory of relativity you're gonna get slapped by decades of fact.
History on the other hand is based on interpretation and a person's own conclusions.
Certainly you can simply parrot whatever Rafe says but my interpretation has just as much right to be weighed as his in this forum.So while you can use Rafe's conclusions you need to be able to back it up with his reasoning.
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Unread postby Lu Kang » Mon Nov 01, 2004 2:35 am

Exar Kun wrote:Then I suppose you could quote that when I bring it up then.


Already hinted at it and most nearly explicitly quoted it. If you want play with it realize that it is one of the most unreliable sources, far worse than JBZ. To accept anything it says as true would be to thrown all your credibilty to the wind.

So what?Pei's notes are hardly infallible.Neither are those of the people who wrote HHS.The core material they would all be using is still SGZ.That the writers of HHS would simply lift the Wu story out is irrelevant just as it was irrelevant when Sima Guang did it.


He had access to all the official Wei, Shu, and Wu histories. He could see everything that was laid out before him as well as having the benifit of writing less than 200 years after most of the events of the TK era. THe closer one is to a time period the better the viewing of it. To him there was absolutely no other way in to say it. That is extremely important considering he had all the OFFICIAL dyansty histories of Wei and Wu and the privates ones of all three.

For the same reason every kingdom bio doesn't bother spending a long paragraph writing about their defeats.It can be seen with all three kingdoms.Strangely enough,it seems that the glory of Shu/Wu/Wei is not best served by giving a play by play on their defeats.

Why doesn't Sun Quan go into great detail at He Fei,not that nonesense about Ling Tong and such,but about Zhang Liao so precisely making him look like a fool.Why doesn't he give details on his blunder at Xiang Yang?Why doesn't Cao Cao tell us about how his crossing the river is stopped by Ma Chao?Why won't Liu Bei show us every step the fool he was made of in the north?


Cao Cao's bio doesn't mention any facts about he defeat. His bio also doesn't give credit to Sun Quan is several key locaitons such as He Fei and Jingzhou. In regards to Jingzhou it says that Liu Bei conquered it. Does this mean that Zhou Yu had no part? Does this mean Zhou Yu didn't inflict the highest casualties? Does mean that Zhou Yu didn't capture the most important city lost by Wei? No, it doesn't mean any of these. That is something that Cao Cao's bio gave little info on and missed everything that Wu did, which was a whole lot.

Furthermore his bios completley contradicts Wei Histories, Shu histories, Wu histories, SGZ Wei, SGZ Shu, SGZ Wu, not to mention commentaries as well. His bio is wrong. I've proven it on many occasions to you yet you continue to spread lies and take it over all other sources. Right now I'm calling you out. Either prove all other histories and sources are wrong or drop your point on the bio being reliable in that line. No answer is as good as a drop.

Do be quiet about Wulin Bofu.


None Wu sources talk about Wulin so it is not something made up by Wu. The very presense of Wulin proves that it was Wu that played the pivotal role in defeating Cao Cao. In later times Lu Xun gives advice to Sun Quan not to send men to Liaodong and mentions his victories including defeating Cao Cao at Wulin. Lu Xun has absolutely no reason to lie here because he is sending a personal memorial to Sun Quan. A lie here is no good because it would just make him cocky and negate the importance of the memorial. Later, Zhuge Jin and Bu Zhi plead to recall Zhou Yin's (Zhou Yu's son) punishment of exilement to Luling, talking about Zhou Yu's accomplishments for why. They stated that Zhou Yu defeated CAo Cao at Wu lin but why would they say that if it didn't happen? That would just be ridiculous for them to try and get a pardon by saying things that didn't happen to Sun Quan. Wu Lin most certainly did happen and unless you can prove otherwise I recommend you stop trying to put it down with nothing more than lies and arrogant put offs.

Perhaps if Liu Bei's and Zhou Yu's bios both agreed 100% or didn't have the holes between them it might be alright to dismiss Cao Cao's bio.But they do have holes.Once again I must mention the infamous raging inferno that makes nuclear explosions look petty.The raging inferno that is completely out of whack with Cao Cao's military movements and doesn't even coincide with Liu Bei's bio.


I find it funny that you always mention a "Raging Inferno" that is nothing more than a figment of your imagination. The chinese mentions no "ragining inferno" and I've found that whole translated bio to be suspect of poor translation and skipping over large portions of information. That was merely the translators words not what is written. Do not continue to spread lies. Also don't take older translations too literally as many of them have portions breezed over.

Zhou Yu's bio does agree nearly perfectly with Liu Bei's bio. They have absolutely no contradiction and that's all that matters. The only source that contradicts Zhou Yu's bio contradicts EVERY OTHER BIO. Zhou Yu's bio agrees with them all and I've provided proof above. You've never had a counter arguement and you never will. The evidence is quite clear, Zhou Yu's bio is not lies, it's the truth. You seem to want to take 1 bio over all others and ignore the truth.

Once again I must wonder,if this plan went off so well,why didn't Zhou Yu catch Cao Cao?That was his primary objective.Why was Liu Bei the only person even close to catching Cao Cao when supposedly Liu Bei should have been awed by the fact that Wu dropped an inferno on Wei and had to wake his men up.


The only source that mentions Liu Bei anywhere close is the source I mentioned earlier. It holds absolutely no relevance in a historical debate as the source is horribley unreliable. Why didn't he capture him? Quite simply because he fled. Zhou Yu and company pursued but remember that Cao Cao has excellent cavalry. They chased him all the way to Jiang Ling (which I've incidently found to have yet another name: Yingdu). They tried but Cao Cao does have the best cavalry that can run pretty fast you know.


Is there not GREATER reason for Wu to lie?Wu lied it's entire career.They lied to Liu Bei,to Cao Cao,to themselves.Do they need to tell their people that Liu Bei saved them from Wei's iron hand?Or is it better for them to exaggerrate their own role in order to keep morale high?

Of course SGZ is rife with propaganda.A prime example is found in Zhou Yu's bio.No one had greater motive to lie than Wu.


There isn't a scrap of evidence to support what you've stated about Chi Bi being all propaganda. Wu did not have anymore reason to lie than Wei or Shu. In fact look at few posts up. Notice something? Zhou Yu's bio Agrees with all other bios except the one that's blatantly wrong. You've never been able to say anything against that and always avoid it, because you have nothing to say. It's the truth. Zhou Yu's bio is correct and agrees with all others. Unless you can prove all the bios wrong and prove Cao Cao's right you have no arguement. The only bio ever to go against Zhou Yu's is Cao Cao's. Zhou Yu's agrees with them all. I've provided proof all over. I've provided proof that Zhou Yu led them to victory. Zhuge Jin's, Bu Zhi's, and Lu Xun's words are a testiment to this.
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Unread postby Luminaire » Thu Nov 04, 2004 5:58 pm

<i>Is there not GREATER reason for Wu to lie?Wu lied it's entire career.They lied to Liu Bei,to Cao Cao,to themselves.Do they need to tell their people that Liu Bei saved them from Wei's iron hand?Or is it better for them to exaggerrate their own role in order to keep morale high?</i>
When exactly did I imply that Wu didn't lie? I said that all three kingdoms lie and exagerate at their leisure. Red Cliff is perhaps one of the biggest examples of this.

<i>Look at my previous statement to Lu Kang.Minimizing mention of defeats in a kingdom norm for everybody.They try to get it over with as quick as possible.See all the examples I listed.</i>
Isn't that exactly the point? The sources you choose to rely on are tainted by bias.

<i>Physics is based on fact,unassailable fact.You try to argue the the theory of relativity you're gonna get slapped by decades of fact.</i>
Much of physics is very open to interpretation. The theory of relativity even to this day is being modified and expanded. Likewise there are many inaccuracies in the physical world that we can't explain with current theories. Certain numbers don't work out the way they should. Of course this is completely off topic.

<i>Certainly you can simply parrot whatever Rafe says but my interpretation has just as much right to be weighed as his in this forum.So while you can use Rafe's conclusions you need to be able to back it up with his reasoning.</i>
I could but I see no reason to. How can you really mind me quoting sources more knowledable than either of us. Everything I've read gives more credit to Zhou Yu than Lei Bei. Rafe confirms what other historians have said about the event. Wang Fuzhi credits Zhou Yu more than any other. In case you miss the point, History is the feild of expertise of historians.

Logically, Lui Bei commanded less troops. He had nothing to do with any fire attack. What troops he did have were probably demoralized. I really see no reason to give them equal billing.
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