Wu: The Lone Warrior of ChiBi.

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Unread postby Lady Wu » Fri Nov 05, 2004 6:42 am

Oh do stop this "Wu always lies, Shu and Wei are the only honest ones around" nonsense. It's getting boring.

Of course all of them lied. Everyone wanted to save face and legitimize their rule, so each of them had to skew the facts in some way. The question is how do we extract as much truth as possible from each of the accounts.

Unless you can demonstrate that something is wrong based on a disinterested 3rd person account, I think it's premature and logically fallacious to claim that a certain account of a certain event is false just because that account doesn't match up with the other (two) accounts fully.

But do use this thread for discussion on the reliability of SGZ:Wu.
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The Battle of Chi Bi: War of the Three Kingdoms

Unread postby Yuan Sho » Sun May 28, 2006 5:06 am

The only thing that is certain from both the novel and historical views of the Chi Bi battle is that Liu Bei and Zhuge Liang did not participate in the battles.

1: Liu Bei forms an alliance with Sun Quan
2: Zhou Yu led the South Land Army to victory against Cao Cao
3: Liu Bei takes over Jing as his home base.

Although the points are short, I shall say it like this. Liu Bei, as we know from the novel, fled when Cao Cao chased him. He later sends Zhuge Liang over to the Wu territory to form an alliance with Sun Quan. Some wanted to surrender while others wished for a fight. Zhou Yu was willing to submit, but due to Zhuge Liang bringing his wife into the matter, Zhou Yu wanted to see Cao Cao dead. Zhou Yu later on leads the South Land Army to victory against Cao Cao using not only superior military skills, but the might of the soldiers, the generals, and the advantage of terrain. (Although the novel says Zhuge Liang did assist twice with the arrow ploy and the calling of the South-East Wind, I shall say nothing of it unless anyone knows the real truth behind it.)

Later on, Zhou Yu and Cheng Pu would've taken over the region Cao Ren was defending, but due to Zhuge Liang's sneaking habits, they lost the chance. In others words, Liu Bei gets the South Land to fight Cao Cao then later takes over the land that they won from them or should've won from them. :evil: :shock:
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Chi Bi War

Unread postby Yuan Sho » Mon Oct 23, 2006 4:35 am

I hear it all and see it so much then I laugh at how funny it is. The battle of Chi Bi was all of Wu's work and resources due to the fact that the soldiers knew how to fight on the water. Although my own knowledge comes from the novel, I do know this much. Overall, Zhou Yu with Lu Su and Cheng Pu led the armies of the South Land against Cao Cao and won with clever use of the generals and soldiers. More importantly, Zhou Yu deserves the most credict because he knew that Cao Cao had many disadvantages against him.

The novel may not provide 100% truth, but I know Liu Bei and Zhuge Liang did not even get involve in the war. Then, after Cao Cao managed to get away from the Red Cliffs, he was still being harassed by Wu forces and Liu Bei's army. So who does all the work? Why none other than Wu because Zhuge Liang did not want them to surrender so easily and have two enemies coming at them. (Of course, this is what I believe)

Once again with more pride, Wu was the central kingdom at Chi Bi while Liu Bei and his army sat back till all the heat was off of them. No more, no less. Way to go Wu and to the Commanders: Zhou Yu, Lu Su, and Cheng Pu.
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Unread postby Jedi » Mon Oct 23, 2006 5:48 pm

Lady Wu wrote:Oh do stop this "Wu always lies, Shu and Wei are the only honest ones around" nonsense. It's getting boring.

Of course all of them lied. Everyone wanted to save face and legitimize their rule, so each of them had to skew the facts in some way. The question is how do we extract as much truth as possible from each of the accounts.

Unless you can demonstrate that something is wrong based on a disinterested 3rd person account, I think it's premature and logically fallacious to claim that a certain account of a certain event is false just because that account doesn't match up with the other (two) accounts fully.

But do use this thread for discussion on the reliability of SGZ:Wu.



Wu only really lied after Sun Quan took over. and Wei always lies and The only Honarable Familys that Work for Cao Cao are the Xiahous and The Zhangs( I mean the Zhang Liao Family)
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Re: Chi Bi War

Unread postby LiuBeiwasGreat » Mon Oct 23, 2006 11:55 pm

Yuan Sho wrote:I hear it all and see it so much then I laugh at how funny it is. The battle of Chi Bi was all of Wu's work and resources due to the fact that the soldiers knew how to fight on the water. Although my own knowledge comes from the novel, I do know this much. Overall, Zhou Yu with Lu Su and Cheng Pu led the armies of the South Land against Cao Cao and won with clever use of the generals and soldiers. More importantly, Zhou Yu deserves the most credict because he knew that Cao Cao had many disadvantages against him.

The novel may not provide 100% truth, but I know Liu Bei and Zhuge Liang did not even get involve in the war. Then, after Cao Cao managed to get away from the Red Cliffs, he was still being harassed by Wu forces and Liu Bei's army. So who does all the work? Why none other than Wu because Zhuge Liang did not want them to surrender so easily and have two enemies coming at them. (Of course, this is what I believe)

Once again with more pride, Wu was the central kingdom at Chi Bi while Liu Bei and his army sat back till all the heat was off of them. No more, no less. Way to go Wu and to the Commanders: Zhou Yu, Lu Su, and Cheng Pu.


Well that is why we have historical sources. In SGZ it says that Liu Bei particiapted in the battle of Chi Bi so no matter how much pride you may have in Wu being the only one who fought it simply isn't true. There were two main battles during Chi Bi. There was the battle of Chi Bi which was a land battle where Cao Cao sent an army south of the river that the combined forces of Liu Bei and Zhou Yu defeated. Then there was the burning of the ships at Wu Lin which most bios say that Wu was the main fighter. However it is implied in some bios that Liu Bei played a role in this attack as well however it is never actually said, besides in Cao Cao's bio.

So sorry to break it to you but Liu Bei did play a part in the battle of Chi Bi.
Here is from Zhou Yu's bio

"Liu Bei sent Zhuge Liang as an envoy to Sun Quan. Following that, Sun Quan dispatched Zhou Yu, Cheng Pu and other Wu generals to meet Liu Bei in order to consolidate their forces against Cao Cao’s army. The army of the Sun-Liu alliance engaged Cao Cao’s army at Chi Bi. During then, Cao Cao’s army was already having problems with many soldiers falling sick. As such, during the initial engagement, Cao Cao’s army was promptly defeated and retreated back to the northern shore of the river Yang Tze."

This was before the fire attack.
Now if you wanted to keep this in the relm of the novel i am sorry, however this is how it happened historically.
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Unread postby Dong Zhou » Tue Oct 24, 2006 7:06 am

Jedi wrote:
Wu only really lied after Sun Quan took over. and Wei always lies and The only Honarable Familys that Work for Cao Cao are the Xiahous and The Zhangs( I mean the Zhang Liao Family)


Did Wei lie? Yes but not all the time, nobody did and there reforms where very good for the people. There where many geat families in each kingom and great men, the Xu clan, the Sima's, Chen Qun, the Cao family. To be honest, was there a good Zhao other then Zhang Liao in Wei?

Did not Sun Ce lie to Yuan Shu? Did not Sun Jian lie to two Han appointed officals and killed them? People will lie for their cuase sometimes, espically when men of great ambition
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Unread postby Jedi » Tue Oct 24, 2006 3:16 pm

Dong Zhou wrote:
Jedi wrote:
Wu only really lied after Sun Quan took over. and Wei always lies and The only Honarable Familys that Work for Cao Cao are the Xiahous and The Zhangs( I mean the Zhang Liao Family)


Did Wei lie? Yes but not all the time, nobody did and there reforms where very good for the people. There where many geat families in each kingom and great men, the Xu clan, the Sima's, Chen Qun, the Cao family. To be honest, was there a good Zhao other then Zhang Liao in Wei?

Did not Sun Ce lie to Yuan Shu? Did not Sun Jian lie to two Han appointed officals and killed them? People will lie for their cuase sometimes, espically when men of great ambition



I said they didnt lie much untill Sun Quan came along not they didnt lie at all. Sima Yis family betrayed the Cao Family and how evil is that? Sun Quan was a Person who only cared about himself and look at the losses.
Taisi Ci , Zhou Yu , Gan Ning , he sent them to there deaths. (Zhou Yu by not haveing a doctor to fix him up he beviled Zhou Yu that he was alright)
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Unread postby Dong Zhou » Tue Oct 24, 2006 3:27 pm

Sun Jian was a general rather then a lord and Sun Ce didn't live for that long, both proved that would lie when it suited them. Sun Quan lived longer and was a warlord, of course he is going to do more then the other two.

Taisi Ci , Zhou Yu , Gan Ning


They died of illness, how is that Sun Quan's fault? What about the care Sun Quan took of the ill Lu Meng? Alkso where did you get that Zhou Yu lack of doctor thing?

What about the many loyal Sima's like Sima Yi and his brothers? Does the actions of a few overide all the good?
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Unread postby MarvelousLingTong!!!!!! » Tue Oct 24, 2006 4:42 pm

What about the many loyal Sima's like Sima Yi and his brothers? Does the actions of a few overide all the good?


I'm not sure if it was just in the novel or not, but I know that at least in the novel Sima Yi's brother Sima Fu turned down the position that Sima Yan offered him so that he could serve Cao Huan. Which he did till the day he died at least in the novel apparently.

What about the care Sun Quan took of the ill Lu Meng?


He also took in Ling Tong's children and cared for them after Ling Tong died.
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Unread postby Jedi » Tue Oct 24, 2006 5:02 pm

Grrr Gan ning died battleing sha moke and Taishi ci died at He fei
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