Zhou Yu the Great

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Unread postby TheGreatNads » Wed Apr 30, 2003 1:36 am

jiuwan wrote:Sima Yi even commented on Zhuge Liang's abilities when he visited his camps after the latter's death.


But Sima Yi wasn't necessarily commenting on Kongming's military strategy.
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Unread postby Famed Hero » Wed Apr 30, 2003 1:56 am

Zhou Zero wrote:who came up with the fire attack? I thought it was either Zhuge, Zhou Yu, or that big guy that carries a club. Now, about Lu meng, tell me some other stuff that he did. I'm only through the book about 1/4 of the way ( that's a lot, really, out of 2,400 pages...) but, in my opinion, Zhou Yu is just plain cool. I've never heard much about Lu Meng except when I played the game.


Well after you say that you really have no justification in saying...

Zhou Zero wrote:There is no greater man than Zhou Yu, both in history and in the games. Long live his will! :D


Don't confuse the novel with the real history and definately do not confuse the games with anything :roll: :D
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Unread postby jiuwan » Wed Apr 30, 2003 2:31 am

TheGreatNads wrote:But Sima Yi wasn't necessarily commenting on Kongming's military strategy.


Yes, that's why I used abilities instead. Sima Yi didn't say directly on Zhuge's military strategy itself, but instead referred to his military abilities instead.
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Unread postby TheGreatNads » Wed Apr 30, 2003 2:58 am

jiuwan wrote:Yes, that's why I used abilities instead. Sima Yi didn't say directly on Zhuge's military strategy itself, but instead referred to his military abilities instead.


But how do you know it was military abilites? It could be something like camp formation.
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Unread postby jiuwan » Wed Apr 30, 2003 3:21 am

TheGreatNads wrote:But how do you know it was military abilites? It could be something like camp formation.


Well it was a pretty broad subject. Camp formation will fall under the category of one of military abilities. But your original question states:
<i>But Sima Yi wasn't necessarily commenting on Kongming's military strategy.</i>

That's why I stayed away from anything specific, and just said abilities. Whereas you used "strategy". Because we simply don't know exactly what Sima Yi was saying or referring to, but an educated guess can be something that has to do with how Zhuge Liang deals with military matters. Or I can be wrong all together. But this point of debate won't get us anywhere. Finished.
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Unread postby Pang Shiyuan » Wed Apr 30, 2003 4:35 am

jiuwan wrote:Yes Chen Shou did praise Zhuge Liang's political side, but not much on his militaristic side. If you've read Zhuge LIang's bio in chinese, at the end there is a little paragraph called - Chen Shou's comments. In his comments of Zhuge Liang, he says Zhuge was a master at political, but not miltiary-wise. Now if you then go read Zhuge Liang's book on military: The way of the general (I think that's what it's called in english); you will see the great insight Zhuge Liang had concerning the military.
Sima Yi even commented on Zhuge Liang's abilities when he visited his camps after the latter's death.
Chen Shou did praise Zhuge to a certain extent, but he also made sure it didn't hurt Wei too much.


There is another comment by Chen Shou at the bottom of the Zhuge bio...

This subject contemplates Your Majesty following in the footsteps of the ancient sages, high-minded and without resentment. Hence the slanders of former states are all recorded without abridgement to demonstrate our way of magnanimity. This subject Chen Shou writes with reverence and awe, in trepidation of committing a capital crime. The Marquis of Yangping, Chancellor and subject - Chen Shou, submits this on the day of guisi, the first day of the second month of the tenth year of Taishi [274]."


Chen Shou didn't really praise or put down Zhuge Liang's millitary skills, rather, he gave reasons for Zhuge's failures, citing lack of talented officers and the range of awesome Wei generals guarding the paths to Chang An.
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Unread postby Yorak » Wed Apr 30, 2003 10:39 am

Bringing up kind of an old point...

Now if you then go read Zhuge Liang's book on military: The way of the general (I think that's what it's called in english); you will see the great insight Zhuge Liang had concerning the military.


There's an old saying that springs to mind: "Those who can, do; those who can't, teach."

Thing is, there's a difference between writing a book on the proper way to do something and actually doing it yourself. There was many a time in my brief military career when someone would give a class on a subject, but even though they gave us the correct information, they themselves couldn't apply it.

I'm not saying Zhuge Liang was a poor strategist or not militarily adept; on the contrary, I think he was pretty good. I'm just saying that just because he wrote books on tactics and leadership, that doesn't make him a good strategist and leader.
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Unread postby Zhou Zero » Wed Apr 30, 2003 11:41 am

Zhuge Liang has all the rights in the world to be a great leader and write good books. He had plenty of room to talk, because he was so freakin' good at what he did in battle!
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Unread postby Pang Shiyuan » Wed Apr 30, 2003 11:59 am

Yorak wrote:Bringing up kind of an old point...

Now if you then go read Zhuge Liang's book on military: The way of the general (I think that's what it's called in english); you will see the great insight Zhuge Liang had concerning the military.


There's an old saying that springs to mind: "Those who can, do; those who can't, teach."


So you're saying Sun Wu (Sun Zi) who wrote the famous Sun Zi's Art of War couldn't apply his own strategies in the field of battle? He, along with Wu Zixu laid waste to the state of Chu (much of Jing Zhou during the three kingdoms period) and nearly wiped it out of existence if not for the powerful Qin's aid in resurrecting Chu.
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Unread postby TheGreatNads » Thu May 01, 2003 1:46 am

Pang Shiyuan wrote:So you're saying Sun Wu (Sun Zi) who wrote the famous Sun Zi's Art of War couldn't apply his own strategies in the field of battle? He, along with Wu Zixu laid waste to the state of Chu (much of Jing Zhou during the three kingdoms period) and nearly wiped it out of existence if not for the powerful Qin's aid in resurrecting Chu.


There's a big difference between what you're saying and he said. You see Sun Wu like you said laid waist to the state of Chu. So that can be looked at as proof Zhuge Liang never did such a thing.
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