Zhou Yu the Great

Best threads of the SGYYS, for your viewing pleasure.

Unread postby Pang Shiyuan » Tue Apr 29, 2003 11:49 am

jiuwan wrote:Bias can come in different forms. Omission of facts, altered facts, less credit etc..


I am quite aware of that. However, having read Zhuge's SGZ bio again, I feel that Chen Shou has certainly sung his praises and painted him in a favourable light to an extent, even at the risk of incurring the wrath of Sima Yan.

Anyway, I doubt Chen Shou would've allowed his prejudice to cloud his professionality.

I remember a story from the Spring & Autumn/Warring States period where Prime minister Cui of Qi slew his ruler because he found out that the King of Qi was having an affair with his wife.

One court historian noted: "Year --: The Prime minister killed his king", and was executed for that. The historian's brother took up his post and wrote the same thing, to which, Cui killed him as well. Then his third and last brother was appointed and followed in his brothers' footsteps.

Cui gave up eventually, knowing that he simply couldn't change history.
User avatar
Pang Shiyuan
凤雏先生
 
Posts: 903
Joined: Sat Jun 15, 2002 10:35 am
Location: somewhere

Unread postby Jimayo » Tue Apr 29, 2003 2:58 pm

Pang Shiyuan wrote:I am quite aware of that. However, having read Zhuge's SGZ bio again, I feel that Chen Shou has certainly sung his praises and painted him in a favourable light to an extent, even at the risk of incurring the wrath of Sima Yan.

Anyway, I doubt Chen Shou would've allowed his prejudice to cloud his professionality.

I remember a story from the Spring & Autumn/Warring States period where Prime minister Cui of Qi slew his ruler because he found out that the King of Qi was having an affair with his wife.

One court historian noted: "Year --: The Prime minister killed his king", and was executed for that. The historian's brother took up his post and wrote the same thing, to which, Cui killed him as well. Then his third and last brother was appointed and followed in his brothers' footsteps.

Cui gave up eventually, knowing that he simply couldn't change history.


Pei managed to double the size of ZL's bio, so it could be something like ommision on Chen Shou's part. Or maybe not, cause Pei added a lot of stuff to SGZ.
98% of the internet population has a Myspace. If you're part of the 2% that isn't an emo bastard, copy and paste this into your sig.
Jimayo
Lord of the Thirteen Hells
 
Posts: 3308
Joined: Sat Jun 15, 2002 1:38 am
Location: Nothingness. And that's where I'll be returning in oh, about 15 minutes.

Unread postby Zhou Zero » Tue Apr 29, 2003 10:23 pm

Thank you all so much. You've made me one happy camper! :D
I would rather betray the world than have it betray me! -Cao Cao
User avatar
Zhou Zero
Apprentice
 
Posts: 31
Joined: Mon Apr 28, 2003 11:12 pm
Location: Biding my time in the shadows...

Unread postby Pang Shiyuan » Tue Apr 29, 2003 10:34 pm

Notorious P.I.K wrote:Pei managed to double the size of ZL's bio, so it could be something like ommision on Chen Shou's part. Or maybe not, cause Pei added a lot of stuff to SGZ.


Yes, his anecdotes made SGZ more readable and cohesive, and his work was later lauded by his ruler during the Northern/Southern dynasties period. However, there is a lot of doubt as to the historical accuracy of his work...bios like Zhao Yun's doesn't hold much respect as that of say, Guan Yunchang. I think Pei's version of Zhao Yun's bio may have influenced Luo Guanzhong later during the Ming dynasty...
User avatar
Pang Shiyuan
凤雏先生
 
Posts: 903
Joined: Sat Jun 15, 2002 10:35 am
Location: somewhere

Unread postby jiuwan » Tue Apr 29, 2003 11:17 pm

Pang Shiyuan wrote:I am quite aware of that. However, having read Zhuge's SGZ bio again, I feel that Chen Shou has certainly sung his praises and painted him in a favourable light to an extent, even at the risk of incurring the wrath of Sima Yan.


Yes Chen Shou did praise Zhuge Liang's political side, but not much on his militaristic side. If you've read Zhuge LIang's bio in chinese, at the end there is a little paragraph called - Chen Shou's comments. In his comments of Zhuge Liang, he says Zhuge was a master at political, but not miltiary-wise. Now if you then go read Zhuge Liang's book on military: The way of the general (I think that's what it's called in english); you will see the great insight Zhuge Liang had concerning the military.
Sima Yi even commented on Zhuge Liang's abilities when he visited his camps after the latter's death.
Chen Shou did praise Zhuge to a certain extent, but he also made sure it didn't hurt Wei too much.
jiuwan
Marquis of Shun Ping
 
Posts: 541
Joined: Tue Jan 07, 2003 4:46 am

Unread postby jiuwan » Tue Apr 29, 2003 11:21 pm

Notorious P.I.K. wrote:Pei managed to double the size of ZL's bio, so it could be something like ommision on Chen Shou's part. Or maybe not, cause Pei added a lot of stuff to SGZ.


Can you tell me where I can find Pei's annotations? I would like to read it in chinese if possible, but english just as good. Is it some where on the net?

I have Zi Zhi Tong Jian, Hou Han Shu, San Guo Zhi, and San Guo Yuan Yi already. I want to get my hands on Pei's annotations as well.
jiuwan
Marquis of Shun Ping
 
Posts: 541
Joined: Tue Jan 07, 2003 4:46 am

Unread postby Jimayo » Tue Apr 29, 2003 11:28 pm

jiuwan wrote:Can you tell me where I can find Pei's annotations? I would like to read it in chinese if possible, but english just as good. Is it some where on the net?

I have Zi Zhi Tong Jian, Hou Han Shu, San Guo Zhi, and San Guo Yuan Yi already. I want to get my hands on Pei's annotations as well.


No idea. I don't read chinese. I just talked to steve(SHZLD over at 3k) a lot about ZL, and naturally he brought up things from Pei's annotations that I'd never heard, so of course, I had to get him to tell me about all the additions.
98% of the internet population has a Myspace. If you're part of the 2% that isn't an emo bastard, copy and paste this into your sig.
Jimayo
Lord of the Thirteen Hells
 
Posts: 3308
Joined: Sat Jun 15, 2002 1:38 am
Location: Nothingness. And that's where I'll be returning in oh, about 15 minutes.

Unread postby jiuwan » Tue Apr 29, 2003 11:33 pm

Notorious P.I.K. wrote:No idea. I don't read chinese. I just talked to steve(SHZLD over at 3k) a lot about ZL, and naturally he brought up things from Pei's annotations that I'd never heard, so of course, I had to get him to tell me about all the additions.


If it's possible can you get the link from him (if it's online). I would like to read it. As well as others on here. So it'll benefit more than just me.
jiuwan
Marquis of Shun Ping
 
Posts: 541
Joined: Tue Jan 07, 2003 4:46 am

Unread postby CaTigeReptile » Tue Apr 29, 2003 11:37 pm

San Guo Zhi, Record of the Three Kingdoms, is just that: a record, which is considered unbiased and accurate, written 50 years 'after the fact'
(I'm not sure exactly when, but after Jin established itself). It's only been translated into English and widely published once, an extremely long time ago by Achilles Fang, and so we here depend upon the translators here and elsewere who do that favor for non-Chinese script readers. The book is not chronological, but is biographical, and so events that a person went through might not be found in their biography, but in someone else's who also went through that event. Luo Guanzhong, about 1300 years later, wrote Romance of the Three Kingdoms, his facts coming from San Guo Zhi and the variations on it (another book you will come across often is the ZZTJ, Zi Zhi Tong Jian (Or is it Zhi Zi Tong Jian?) written a few hundred years later I don't want to say opinionated, but I want to say written in a way where it might have some opinion. There were, of course, folk stories about people, Chinese Opera, and all that over time. When Luo Guanzhong wrote his novel, he wrote it with embellishments, to say the least, so that he could take a historical era and make it into a tale. Tales need heroes, underdogs, villains, idiots, and all that, and so that's what he did. That's why Lu Meng's accomplishments aren't always credited to him, so that he wouldn't look as good as other people who LGZ wanted to shine. It's a very important thing to know that SGYY (Romance of the Three Kingdoms) is not a factual book, but a historical novel, and it's not as widely known as it should be.

:shock: The conversation that's gone on while I was typing. . I hope I have some fresh information in my typographical monster. . .
I don't want to get rid of my first thing, but I will say, Jiuwan, about history being written by the winners, SGZ was written by the winners, but most people now in the present know the Three Kingdoms by LGZ's novel, where Shu, not any winner, is glorified. So it's funny; different in this case. . .
Last edited by CaTigeReptile on Tue Apr 29, 2003 11:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
CaTigeReptile
Langzhong
 
Posts: 579
Joined: Sat Aug 24, 2002 8:58 pm
Location: General who Stabs Evil People

Unread postby Jimayo » Tue Apr 29, 2003 11:39 pm

jiuwan wrote:
Notorious P.I.K. wrote:No idea. I don't read chinese. I just talked to steve(SHZLD over at 3k) a lot about ZL, and naturally he brought up things from Pei's annotations that I'd never heard, so of course, I had to get him to tell me about all the additions.


If it's possible can you get the link from him (if it's online). I would like to read it. As well as others on here. So it'll benefit more than just me.


Well, hopefully I'll talk to him see(we don't seem to be online at the same time all that often anymore), but I'll try and find out.
98% of the internet population has a Myspace. If you're part of the 2% that isn't an emo bastard, copy and paste this into your sig.
Jimayo
Lord of the Thirteen Hells
 
Posts: 3308
Joined: Sat Jun 15, 2002 1:38 am
Location: Nothingness. And that's where I'll be returning in oh, about 15 minutes.

PreviousNext

Return to Sanguo Yanyi Symposium Archives

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests

Copyright © 2002–2008 Kongming’s Archives. All Rights Reserved