Zhou Yu the Great

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Unread postby jiuwan » Tue Apr 29, 2003 12:00 am

Zhou Zero wrote:I have one question about Lu Meng. How come all of his best stuff was attributed to others?!?!?! Could it be a lie?? Where did you people learn so much so fast about all of these people?!?!? Jeez, and I though I knew the most! My knowledge is impressive, I admit. Honestly, I only know a few things about Zhou Yu. enlighten me!


What you know it appears to be mostly from SGYY written by Luo Guan Zhong and the various games by Koei. (This I perceive from readin your posts, no offense in intended.) Well most of us here learn from each other through debates, reading other people's posts, and reading the actual historical facts of the 3 kingdoms era. If you can only read english then you will be limited to what ever is found on the KMA site. There is only a handful of SGZ bio's of some officers. That would be a good starting point in learning more.
Some of us can read chinese so, we have access to more materials and read more on the Three Kingdoms then most of the users on here.
And the ones that can read chinese, (eventually you'll know who they are), translate and fill the rest in. That's where all the translated bios came from, a handful of people translating and then putting it up on KMA for others to read.

(I'm currently working on translating Hua Tuo's SGZ bio, so look for that soon.)
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Unread postby Zanbatou » Tue Apr 29, 2003 12:02 am

Simmer down man...
SGZ is a purely historical compilation of biogrphies. The reason people refer to it so much is it is the most complete compilation of the era's events. However, like everything else, it could have some errors/biases. I won't tell you the full name though, just to piss you off :wink:
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Unread postby jiuwan » Tue Apr 29, 2003 12:05 am

Zhou Zero wrote:SGZ??? everyone swears by that thing in the last 5 minutes.. what is it?? what is the full name? i am reading Romances of the Three Kingdoms by Luo Guangzhong!


SGZ is 三 國 志 (San Guo Zhi) written by Chen Shou during the Jin dynasty. It is a <b>historical documentation</b>. Unlike SGYY (San Guo Yuan Yi) which is the book you're reading - Romance of the Three Kingdoms. SGYY is a <b>novel</b> written by Luo Guan Zhong.
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Unread postby waynethegame » Tue Apr 29, 2003 12:14 am

EDIT: Aw.. you beat me to it :)

SGZ = San Guo Zhi, the actual historical records which the novel (San Guo Yan Yi AKA Romance of the Three Kingdoms) was based on. Since the novel is just that (estimated to be 70% fact and 30% fictional embellishments) the SGZ is used for any historical reference to the time period, although IMO it might not be a 100% completely factual thing since whoever wrote it probably was biased. Still, its the "real" history, as opposed to the pro-Shu bias of the novel.
++ Wayne ++

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Unread postby jiuwan » Tue Apr 29, 2003 12:26 am

waynethegame wrote:....although IMO it might not be a 100% completely factual thing since whoever wrote it probably was biased. Still, its the "real" history, as opposed to the pro-Shu bias of the novel.


It isn't 100% accurate. As for the person who wrote SGZ, it was none other then Chen Shou during the Jin dynasty. You can say SGYY was pro-Shu, then you must also be prepared to hear that SGZ is somewhat pro-Wei as well (just not as extreme).

Bear in mind that when Chen Shou wrote SGZ, it was during the Jin dynasty, which replaced the Wei dynasty, so Chen Shou couldn't write to much that would hurt the Wei dynasty. Good examples, the Wei emperors. Chen Shou had to do some "justice" by not making them look too bad in SGZ.

As for the "real" history, there never is any. History is written by the winners, not the losers. There is always three sides to the story - the winner's side (which we see); the loser's side; and the "truth" which we never get to see. The only way we can see the truth is to be there physically to witness the events itself.
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Unread postby Zhou Zero » Tue Apr 29, 2003 2:07 am

This whole "pro Shu" thing you've all said is true. It's even stated in the the beginning of the novel by whoever wrote the aforeword. But that can't be completley bad, can it? Let me say that yes, winners write the books, but that doesn't answer my question. Which is more accurate, RTK or the other one with all the biogrophies? Where can i find this other version I've never heard of? I want to learn all there is to learn! This whole era had become an obsession to me! Yes, i'll agree, though most of my knowledge derives from the Dynasty Warriors 2 & 3 games, that is what got me started. Now i read RTK all the time, and in 10 short days i finished 1/4 of the 2,200+ pages. This other version you speak of, (I've already forgotten the name..) what is its name in english? I also have "Mastering the Art of War" with Zhuge Liang and everything. I've visited countless websites with all sorts of little tidbits of info on this era. (did Zhou Yun really die from a pin prick by his wife?!?!) I want to learn more about everything! Please, I beg you, If you are not busy, include a link to any and every site you can directing me into the vast realm of information on The Three Kingdoms Era. I'll read it all and learn much! I feel so naive and useless because now I'm in front of people who have known everything all this time! I thought i knew alot! Anyway, Keep me informed on stuff! Oh, by the way... ZHOU YU STILL RULZ! (i still don't know much about Lu Meng.)
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Unread postby Zhou Zero » Tue Apr 29, 2003 2:07 am

This whole "pro Shu" thing you've all said is true. It's even stated in the the beginning of the novel by whoever wrote the aforeword. But that can't be completley bad, can it? Let me say that yes, winners write the books, but that doesn't answer my question. Which is more accurate, RTK or the other one with all the biogrophies? Where can i find this other version I've never heard of? I want to learn all there is to learn! This whole era had become an obsession to me! Yes, i'll agree, though most of my knowledge derives from the Dynasty Warriors 2 & 3 games, that is what got me started. Now i read RTK all the time, and in 10 short days i finished 1/4 of the 2,200+ pages. This other version you speak of, (I've already forgotten the name..) what is its name in english? I also have "Mastering the Art of War" with Zhuge Liang and everything. I've visited countless websites with all sorts of little tidbits of info on this era. (did Zhou Yun really die from a pin prick by his wife?!?!) I want to learn more about everything! Please, I beg you, If you are not busy, include a link to any and every site you can directing me into the vast realm of information on The Three Kingdoms Era. I'll read it all and learn much! I feel so naive and useless because now I'm in front of people who have known everything all this time! I thought i knew alot! Anyway, Keep me informed on stuff! Oh, by the way... ZHOU YU STILL RULZ! (i still don't know much about Lu Meng.)
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Unread postby jiuwan » Tue Apr 29, 2003 5:31 am

Zhou Zero wrote:This whole "pro Shu" thing you've all said is true. It's even stated in the the beginning of the novel by whoever wrote the aforeword. But that can't be completley bad, can it? Let me say that yes, winners write the books, but that doesn't answer my question. Which is more accurate, RTK or the other one with all the biogrophies? Where can i find this other version I've never heard of? I want to learn all there is to learn! This whole era had become an obsession to me! Yes, i'll agree, though most of my knowledge derives from the Dynasty Warriors 2 & 3 games, that is what got me started. Now i read RTK all the time, and in 10 short days i finished 1/4 of the 2,200+ pages. This other version you speak of, (I've already forgotten the name..) what is its name in english? I also have "Mastering the Art of War" with Zhuge Liang and everything. I've visited countless websites with all sorts of little tidbits of info on this era. (did Zhou Yun really die from a pin prick by his wife?!?!) I want to learn more about everything! Please, I beg you, If you are not busy, include a link to any and every site you can directing me into the vast realm of information on The Three Kingdoms Era. I'll read it all and learn much! I feel so naive and useless because now I'm in front of people who have known everything all this time! I thought i knew alot! Anyway, Keep me informed on stuff! Oh, by the way... ZHOU YU STILL RULZ! (i still don't know much about Lu Meng.)


Sorry, I didn't state it clear enough. I'll repeat it again.
"SGZ is 三 國 志 (San Guo Zhi) written by Chen Shou during the Jin dynasty. It is a <b>historical documentation</b>. Unlike SGYY (San Guo Yuan Yi) which is the book you're reading - Romance of the Three Kingdoms. SGYY is a <b>novel</b> written by Luo Guan Zhong."

Notice how I got some words bolded? With SGZ, it is a historical documentation. It was meant to be used as a historical reference. The facts in it is the most accurate source that we have for what happened in the 3 kingdoms period.

With SGYY, the book you're reading, it's a novel that was derived from SGZ, hence it's 70% historical, and 30% non-historical. The author LGZ chosed to include legends, tales and folk lores in his novel.

While SGZ used facts to support it's document, SGYY used facts and legends to create a timeless classic. Because let's face it, just history itself can be quite boring. While a novel will captivate an audience. Hence some events were changed or added to make it more interesting and keep the flow of the book going.

As some sources you can use:

English -
<A HREF = "http://kongming.net/novel/bios">KMA</A>
<A HREF = "http://users.bigpond.com/acesc">3 Kingdoms Chronicle</A>

That's all I know for english sites.The english sites don't have all the bios in it. It's just bits and pieces that were translated by various people.

If you can read chinese -
<A HREF = "http://www.shuku.net:8080/novels/history/csdsgz/sgz.html">SGZ in chinese</A>
<A HREF = "http://xf-www.hb.cninfo.net/sanguo/lishi/shiji/houhanshu/">HHS in chinese</A>
<A HREF = "http://shuku.net:8080/novels/history/zztjssmgzb/zztj.html">ZZTJ in chinese</A>


While the chinese sites have ALL the bios in SGZ. There is also Hou Han Shu, a different version, which covers details SGZ doesn't have, but isn't as accurate as SGZ. And there's ZZTJ as well (Zi Zhi Tong Jian) which also covers some details not in SGZ, but again not as accurate as SGZ. Just these three sites will give you more than enough reading material till the end of the year.
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Unread postby Pang Shiyuan » Tue Apr 29, 2003 6:20 am

Not sure where I heard this from , but Chen Shou was reputedly anti-Zhuge Liang (either Han Xin or William told me that) because Zhuge imprisoned his father, a court official of Shu. Which is surprising, considering he wrote a separate Zhuge Liang biography from SGZ and didn't show too much bias.
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Unread postby jiuwan » Tue Apr 29, 2003 11:42 am

Pang Shiyuan wrote:Not sure where I heard this from , but Chen Shou was reputedly anti-Zhuge Liang (either Han Xin or William told me that) because Zhuge imprisoned his father, a court official of Shu. Which is surprising, considering he wrote a separate Zhuge Liang biography from SGZ and didn't show too much bias.


Bias can come in different forms. Omission of facts, altered facts, less credit etc..
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