Zhou Yu the Great

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Re: Zhou Yu the Great

Unread postby Zhuanyong » Thu Nov 03, 2011 4:25 pm

I noticed it after my post went through. I had started my post before you responded to Dong Zhou and had to take a call while I was posting.

EDIT: misspelled a word.
Last edited by Zhuanyong on Thu Nov 03, 2011 4:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Zhou Yu the Great

Unread postby Shen Ai » Thu Nov 03, 2011 4:28 pm

Oh, sorry.
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Re: Zhou Yu the Great

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Thu Nov 03, 2011 6:43 pm

Shen Ai wrote:Well he was a general of talent, enough for Sun Quan to put great trust in him and for Sun Ce to recommend him. The Sun family made some good choices in terms of officers, like Lu Meng and Lu Xun and Cheng Pu and Zhu Ran. Lu Meng is brilliant, I would say even better than Gongjin and Boyan, but he was an opportunist. Smart maybe, but the entire campaign hinged on the fact that Guan Yu was occupied at Fancheng and with Xu Huang. Lu Meng dusted a province without a leader and took control of it when the leader returned defeated and exhausted. A clever move, but great strategy isn't needed here. Good timing and effective leadership is. There were no other intricate schemes involved in the Jing conquest. Zhuge Liang, Deng Ai, SIma Yi and even Jiang Wei could have done the same due to the circumstances.

As for Jiangling, Zhou Yu did have a hand in taking down Cao Ren. Ren isn't useless, I mean he did okay and he's worth noting. Lu Meng convinced Zhou Yu to leave an ambush of 300 to attack Cao Ren. It paid off, but they would have escaped if Zhou hadn't blocked off the route on his own discretion. He used his wounds to lure in the enemy and fought alongside his men bravely.I respect him for his bravery which is really without question. Zhuge Liang was happy to hide behind his army in order to survive. It paid off, but I would prefer to serve a general who share's his mens experiences, not leaving it to them to get on with.


Zhou Yu was talented indeed I would never dispute that he deserved to go as high as his career did. His reputation has perhaps got overblown due to the novel upping his strategic ability plus the backlash from the novel attack job on his personality though. Seems a thoroughly nice guy too.

Sorry, buttering up Guan Yu, taking himself (admittedly partly becuase of genuine illness) out of the firing line so manipulating his opponent, carrying out an invasion in such secrecy that Shu didn't see it coming, taking out the decent defences to stop Guan Yu being warned and then seizing an entire province is not brilliant? Oh and doing this while probably ill and for which he seems to have paid for with his life? Remind me again, who else pulled this off during the 3kingdoms?

Yes it was opportunistic. So? A lot of opportunistic attacks failed, Lu Meng helped play for the opportunity then seized it in a near perfect camapign. Zhuge Liang never showed the imagination required for such a move, Deng Ai perhaps could have but then Deng Ai was also a brilliant strategist, don't know enough about Sima Yi's later miliatry career to comment, no way would Jiang Wei have managed it. Nothing in Jiang Wei's history of defeat after defeat after defeat suggests he was anywhere near Lu Meng. The Wu commander was a great strategist, Jiang Wei was a decent commander in the field but he never showed such imagination.

Cao Ren was a brilliant general but the blocking off the retreat was Lu Meng's idea He also persuaded Zhou Yu to sent a separate force of three hundred to block the narrow trails with firewood, so that should the enemy flee that way, their horses could be taken. Zhou Yu followed his advice. The army made battle on the very same day it arrived at Yiling, and killed over half of the enemy. The rest of the enemy forces sought to escape by night, but ended up at the firewood-blocked road. The horsemen dismounted and fled on foot. The [Wu] army pursued them and captured three hundred horses before taking them back on boats. . Zhou Yu took a long time to force the Wei forces to fall back to Fan and that cost Wu but he showed bravery and leadership certainly. As far his style, it depends on the commander and the circumstance. It was right for Zhou Yu Yu at the time to push closer to the front then Zhuge Liang did but I would much prefer to be under Zhuge Liang's command then I would someone of Ma Chao's bravery. Or Lu Xun over the more warrior like Sun Quan. Some like Cao Cao and others had to adjust their style. In the end, I really wouldn't care if my commander was front-line to preferred to be at the rear, just as long as they would win or at least prevent major casualties.

Edit: Tone comes across as harsher then meant, sorry.

I believe someone in the SGYY sub-forum mentioned that Zhou Yu was great at taking excellent advice and using it to his advantage (paraphrasing by myself).


Agree with that.
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Re: Zhou Yu the Great

Unread postby Shen Ai » Thu Nov 03, 2011 6:57 pm

Sorry, buttering up Guan Yu, taking himself (admittedly partly becuase of genuine illness) out of the firing line so manipulating his opponent, carrying out an invasion in such secrecy that Shu didn't see it coming, taking out the decent defences to stop Guan Yu being warned and then seizing an entire province is not brilliant? Oh and doing this while probably ill and for which he seems to have paid for with his life? Remind me again, who else pulled this off during the 3kingdoms?

Yes it was opportunistic. So? A lot of opportunistic attacks failed, Lu Meng helped play for the opportunity then seized it in a near perfect camapign. Zhuge Liang never showed the imagination required for such a move, Deng Ai perhaps could have but then Deng Ai was also a brilliant strategist, don't know enough about Sima Yi's later miliatry career to comment, no way would Jiang Wei have managed it. Nothing in Jiang Wei's history of defeat after defeat after defeat suggests he was anywhere near Lu Meng. The Wu commander was a great strategist, Jiang Wei was a decent commander in the field but he never showed such imagination.


Hmmm, that's a very comprehensive review of Lu Meng and Zhou Yu. Perhaps I should try studying up more before I post.

The Jing Zhou campaign was skillful, but still, I don't think too much brain power and strategy were needed to conquer the region. Even if he tricked Guan Yu, he thought Wu was his allies and that they were too cowardly to attack. He was wrong, but Lu Meng capitalized on his arrogance and betrayed him. Smart, but how hard can it be to stab someone whom you don't like in the back Guan Yu was up at Fancheng. Wei had him occupied and they whipped him away like a cur. Lu Meng is a smart man, but his opponent was weak and tired and not expecting his supposed allies to betray him. All right maybe Jiang Wei couldn't have pulled this off, but Zhuge Liang effectively stole Jing from Wu so he could do it again. Sima Yi... maybe not. So while Lu Meng was quite unique in his conquest of Jing, I think Zhou Yu could have done the same. Or maybe I hype him up to much. I guess it's impossible to tell and one can only guess.
I've a brave warrior in my army. Shen Ai is his name, and he can slay this Hua Xiong.

Wei has no more famous commanders, Shen Ai takes lead of the vanguard!

Even a commoner on the street knows what Shen Ai is thinking!
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Re: Zhou Yu the Great

Unread postby Zhuanyong » Thu Nov 03, 2011 7:10 pm

Well, Zhou Yu was great. :wink:

What he can have attributed to him is that he was loyal, he had great discernment of military strategy through advice, and he was a leader of men. These things can make anyone great if they do them to the best of their ability and are successful in doing so.
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Re: Zhou Yu the Great

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Thu Nov 03, 2011 7:25 pm

but Zhuge Liang effectively stole Jing from Wu so he could do it again.


1) It was Liu Bei and rather different circumstances.

2) Whenever discussing Jing, use words like alleged for the love of humanity. :P

I think your being slightly unfair to Guan Yu in that yes, he was arrogant and wasn't expecting it but he still had defences in place. Not as strong as they once were perhaps but ones he would have believed would buy time if need be.
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Re: Zhou Yu the Great

Unread postby Striga » Sat Nov 05, 2011 9:51 pm

He pulled away almost all his defences leaving a nearly empty city guarded by generals whom he'd just given a beating to in order to attack the heavily guarded Fan. :|
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Re: Zhou Yu the Great

Unread postby Shen Ai » Sat Nov 05, 2011 10:17 pm

Striga wrote:He pulled away almost all his defences leaving a nearly empty city guarded by generals whom he'd just given a beating to in order to attack the heavily guarded Fan. :|


Guan Yu was arrogant, but expecting Wu to invade was something he should have seen coming. If he couldn't Liu Bei and Zhuge Liang should have.
I've a brave warrior in my army. Shen Ai is his name, and he can slay this Hua Xiong.

Wei has no more famous commanders, Shen Ai takes lead of the vanguard!

Even a commoner on the street knows what Shen Ai is thinking!
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Re: Zhou Yu the Great

Unread postby Striga » Sat Nov 05, 2011 10:20 pm

They were too far away to do anything, and preoccupied with Wei on the other side as well.
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Re: Zhou Yu the Great

Unread postby Shen Ai » Sat Nov 05, 2011 10:21 pm

Could have messaged him. If only they had texts back then...
I've a brave warrior in my army. Shen Ai is his name, and he can slay this Hua Xiong.

Wei has no more famous commanders, Shen Ai takes lead of the vanguard!

Even a commoner on the street knows what Shen Ai is thinking!
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