The Reign of Sun Quan.

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Unread postby Dong Zhou » Sat Jun 11, 2005 8:22 am

If those troops aare expirenced and trained, with strong skilled generals vs badly led militia... I thinkI could do that.

I think the hired and Lu Meng thing was meant for me but I'm switching Lu Meng thing to what Liu said.

lazy Sun Quan? How is he lazy? Just becuase he doesn't lead his army, don't make you lazy.

I though Ce and Cao allied and Cheng Deng just kept being a pain?
“You, are a rebellious son who abandoned his father. You are a cruel brigand who murdered his lord. How can Heaven and Earth put up with you for long? And unless you die soon, how can you face the sight of men?”
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Unread postby LiuBeiwasGreat » Tue Jun 14, 2005 5:46 am

yoshitsune wrote:I'd like to see you conquer 1/3 of China using just 3000 men and 500 horses!

It's true that Sun Ce had the support of Yuan Shu, but the support is very limited, and if he was not a charismatic leader there is no way he could have taken command.

Rebellions after Sun Ce's death? That should not be blamed on Sun Ce, since it does take time for people to settle happily under a new rule. Sun Ce did save enough strength so Sun Quan would have a easy time taking care of the rebellions, and when he was alive no one even dared to rebel. Sun Quan was the one rebelled upon since he was considered weaker.

Wu was greater when Sun Ce was alive, as CaoCao always feared that Sun Ce might attack him, more than he feared when Lu Bu was close by. When Sun Ce died, CaoCao claimed that he could sleep well again. So much respect for the great leader Sun Quan...

Another thing, Lu Xun would have a high position anyhow under Sun Ce, since Lu Xun is Sun Ce's son in law. (or is it Zhou Yu's?) Blood relations is important in ancient China (and nowadays everywhere in Asia), so I'm sure he would be promoted regardless who he serves under.

One last thing, what is wrong with commanding an army by yourself if you know you are up to the job? It does take time and experience for a general to be able to lead an army, and Sun Ce was probably the most experienced and talented general, so what's wrong at leading an army? Not to mention Sun Ce was to conquer terroritories from NOTHING where Sun Quan can just seat on his lazy ass and ask others to do his job.

My conclusion is Sun Ce is a great general on the horseback, and he is a great ruler when he's off the horse. Sun Quan may be a good ruler, but he is not as talented as his brother.


I would like to see somene conquer one third of china with 3,000 men and 500 horses too because no one has ever done it. :lol:
Sun Ce defeated Liu Yao who had been fighting against Yuan Shu's forces for quite a while by the time Sun Ce arrived. He defeated Liu Yao and gained several tens of thousands of soldiers. So he conquered a single territory with 3,000 men and 500 horses.

Wu was much stronger when Sun Quan was ruling. Sun Ce captured only part of Yang before dying not all of it (hell Sun Quan never captured all of the Yang provience) Sun Quan expanding Wu's holdings after Sun Ce died. (i am not talking about into Jing i mean Yang) Sun Ce was on friendly relations with Cao Cao and Guo Jia told Cao Cao that Sun Ce would die soon anyway so there is no reason for Cao Cao to be afraid.

Lu Xun was Sun Ce's son in law but that doesn't mean anything. There were pleanty of people who weren't related to the Sun family with very high ranks. Sun Huan was related to the family but non family members outranked him. It was Lu Meng who convinced Sun Quan to promote Lu Xun.

Nothing wrong with commanding your own army. Sun Ce leading his own troops was good for Wu since he was a talented commander. I don't believe i ever said that he shouldn't have led his own armies. I said that Sun Quan shouldn't lead armies because he wasn't good at it. Plus just because he didn't lead armies most of the time doesn't mean that Sun Quan was lazy. He knew there were better people to do the job so he sent them. He was an administrater and a much better one then his brother was.

Sun Ce could carve out an empire but Sun Quan was the one to rule it. He was a better polition then Sun Ce and could handle the three kingdoms scenario better. Thus making him better in my opinion. He was better suited for ruling one of the three kingdoms then Sun Ce was. Sun Ce was more like Sun Jian, a general more then a ruler.
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Unread postby yoshitsune » Thu Jun 16, 2005 11:29 am

Comparison in history: Oda Nobunaga, Toyotomi Hideyoshi and Ieyasu Tokugawa.

Although all 3 characters are now respected as the unifiers of Japan, I would still say Nobunaga was the greater of the 3 as he was the one establishing the system which prevailed and conquered Japan in the end. The other 2 just enjoyed the results, especially Ieyasu.

Therefore I'd still say Sun Ce was a much better ruler than Sun Quan. He was the one who established rule, and Sun Quan was there to "eat the cake".

BTW, I didn't mean Sun Ce only used 3000 men and 500 horses, but that's what he started with against an army far greater than his, and eventually he conquered Wu. Sun Quan only made sure his brother's rule continued, and nothing special about that. It take a great person to start something, and it only takes an ordinary person who does not make mistakes to make sure the established system works.
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Unread postby LiuBeiwasGreat » Thu Jun 16, 2005 10:56 pm

yoshitsune wrote:Comparison in history: Oda Nobunaga, Toyotomi Hideyoshi and Ieyasu Tokugawa.

Although all 3 characters are now respected as the unifiers of Japan, I would still say Nobunaga was the greater of the 3 as he was the one establishing the system which prevailed and conquered Japan in the end. The other 2 just enjoyed the results, especially Ieyasu.

Therefore I'd still say Sun Ce was a much better ruler than Sun Quan. He was the one who established rule, and Sun Quan was there to "eat the cake".

BTW, I didn't mean Sun Ce only used 3000 men and 500 horses, but that's what he started with against an army far greater than his, and eventually he conquered Wu. Sun Quan only made sure his brother's rule continued, and nothing special about that. It take a great person to start something, and it only takes an ordinary person who does not make mistakes to make sure the established system works.


easy to create difficult to maintain. This has been true throught history people conquer large amounts of land but when it comes to maintaining these lands it tends to fall apart after the first generation. Alexander the Great his empire fell apart after his death, Liu Bei carved out his own land but after he died his land fell apart (many people simply blame Liu Chan or Jiang Wei but it was because Liu Bei was gone)
Sun Ce took over land from people who weren't talented in war and couldn't use their resources properly. Liu Yao was the most talented person he fought who out numbered Sun Ce around 10 to 1. However most people tend to forget that Sun Ce didn't start the battle with Liu Yan he simply joined in. Liu Yan had already been kicked out of Shou Chun by Yuan Shu and was being attacked by Sun Ben. Sun Ce joined with these forces and when he defeated Taishi Ci there was really no one else in Liu Yao's camp with much military talent. Having more troops is important but having no one competant to lead your armies will doom you no matter what your advantage is. Liu Yao wasn't as good as Yuan Shu and after years of fighting really couldn't take much more and having a talented commander like Sun Ce was really the straw the broke the camels back. After this nothing that Sun Ce did militarily was that impressive unless you count beating the incompetant Huang Zu to be impressive.
Sun Quan had to stablize a proveince in chaos then he had to defend against the barbarians in the south of his territory, then had to face the threat of the greatest military leader in the land Cao Cao a threat much bigger then anything Sun Ce had to face. Sun Quan faced much harder trials then Sun Ce. Sun Ce was a better military general then Sun Quan this is true however Sun Quan was forced to face the greatest threats that Wu ever faced and succeded and enabled Wu to not only survive but to prosper as well. This is why i hold Sun Quan to be superior to his brother. History has shown us that maintaining an empire is much harder then creating one.
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