The Reign of Sun Quan.

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Unread postby PrimeMinister Bu Zhi » Mon Aug 02, 2004 2:55 am

If Jin didn't usurp Wei we would be reading about the mighty Wei dynasty, and if LGZ didn't do all that Liu Bei good guy and Cao Cao bad guy stuff, then many people would not have the idea at all( the "Cao Cao evil and Liu Bei good" idea).

Also, I think people really don't know the numbers here. Wu had more offensive victories then Shu did. In case anyone wants me to name, I will gladly. Also, I think people say this because Wu attacked less the Shu did. Anyway, I think it's the Zhuge Liang/Jiang Wei influence. If Jiang Wan lived a little longer, Shu would have been a lot more like Wu in terms of less attacking and more defending. And a lot more domestics. Notice all the domestic information in Sun Quan's bio. No Shu officer will have that much. That's because Shu was very militaristic. All they wanted to do was destroy Wei. They didn't care who died in the process, they didn't care if the econemy was nothing or if the people were starving. As long as Wei loses, they are satisfied.
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Unread postby Exar Kun » Mon Aug 02, 2004 4:26 am

Please do name these offensive victories.I for one am extremely interested in hearing your ideas on these matters.
Certainly I want to know which offensive victory equals Hanzhong.
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Unread postby Liu Yuante » Mon Aug 02, 2004 5:05 am

PrimeMinister Bu Zhi wrote: They didn't care who died in the process, they didn't care if the econemy was nothing or if the people were starving. As long as Wei loses, they are satisfied.


Fortunately for them their losses in war were not heavy, the economy wasn't awful and the people weren't starving. Also, please note that at the end of Zhuge Liang's SGZ bio, Chen Shou basically paints him as the god of all things related to domestic affairs. I think that is at least as impressive as the many items related in Sun Quan's bio.

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Unread postby ShuWeiYan » Tue Mar 01, 2005 11:30 pm

PrimeMinister Bu Zhi wrote:They didn't care who died in the process, they didn't care if the econemy was nothing or if the people were starving. As long as Wei loses, they are satisfied.

You can't say that Shu didn't care for the people. Well, before Zhuge Liang's last northern campaign, he fully focused 3 years on politics and also Jiang Wei, well even though he did want to fight on like Wei yan did after Zhuge Liang died, he had to wait for like at least 13 years just to recover from the losses of Zhuge Liang's northern campaign failures until he started his own northern invasions. Then, this proves that Shu didn't just wanted to defeat Wei.
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Unread postby Zhang Shu » Thu Mar 24, 2005 4:00 pm

How come u dont have any info about after Sun Quan's death and Wu's fall as a whole?
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Unread postby man4422 » Fri Mar 25, 2005 6:43 am

Zhang Shu wrote:How come u dont have any info about after Sun Quan's death and Wu's fall as a whole?


Yes,someone posted the era and the event happen in Wu kingdom.

I think after Sun Quan there are still happening in Wu kindgom. After Sun Quan there is Sun Liang...till Sun Hao. Event like how Ding Feng help to restore Wu kingdom, removing rebellions from Wu, Lu kang and help his kingdom. Sun Hao, and how he surrender to Sima Clan.

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Unread postby yoshitsune » Thu May 19, 2005 3:06 pm

Don't know if it's appropriate to post in this thread, but here it goes.

Out of the 3 kingdoms, I hate Wu the most and Sun Quan is the cause of it. He had the richest part of China yet he didn't go on the offense most of the time, broke his alliance w/ Shu against Wei, and set an alliance w/ Shu after both sides suffering heavy losses. If Sun Ce was alive, he would have made Wu a much better place!
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Unread postby Dong Zhou » Thu May 19, 2005 4:45 pm

yoshitsune wrote:Don't know if it's appropriate to post in this thread, but here it goes.

Out of the 3 kingdoms, I hate Wu the most and Sun Quan is the cause of it. He had the richest part of China yet he didn't go on the offense most of the time, broke his alliance w/ Shu against Wei, and set an alliance w/ Shu after both sides suffering heavy losses. If Sun Ce was alive, he would have made Wu a much better place!


While Sun Quan made a mistake over Jing, Shu where hardly the innocent party in all this. Sun Quan made Wu the richest part of China(if it is the richest part) he had many battles against Wei but sadly Wu's troops where no match for Wei when it got onto the Central Plains.

Liu Bei was hardly seeking an alliance before then either. Sun Quan made one mistake in attacking Guan Yu then got a bit arrogant but he was a great ruler
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Unread postby LiuBeiwasGreat » Thu May 19, 2005 6:50 pm

yoshitsune wrote:Don't know if it's appropriate to post in this thread, but here it goes.

Out of the 3 kingdoms, I hate Wu the most and Sun Quan is the cause of it. He had the richest part of China yet he didn't go on the offense most of the time, broke his alliance w/ Shu against Wei, and set an alliance w/ Shu after both sides suffering heavy losses. If Sun Ce was alive, he would have made Wu a much better place!


While it is ok for you not to like Sun Quan he really isn't as bad as you think. He did go on the offensive sometimes but he was just defeated when he did. He wasn't a great military leader he was basicly a really good governor. Wu wasn't exactly the master of offensive warfare, defense they were really go at but offense well they had a few decent people but overall their troops were better suited for defending their land.
Plus with the things involving Shu that could be blamed more on Lu Meng then Sun Quan since these were his ideas and he convinced Sun Quan to do them (though it didn't take too much convincing i will admit) He made some shortsighted decisions but he did great things for his kingdom.
Also with Sun Ce we never really saw Sun Ce fight anyone worth too much. His father fought tougher people and that was mainly in the north during the rebellion in Liang. Sun Ce defeated some minor warlords and rebels the biggest person that Sun Ce defeated was Huang Zu. Besides that defeating Liu Yao was his most impressive fight. I don't think that Sun Ce would have been as good a leader as Sun Quan. While he did do things that Quan wouldn't have been able to do (take Yang) he wasn't as talented in administration as Sun Quan was.
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Unread postby yoshitsune » Fri May 20, 2005 2:52 pm

Well I think Sun Ce would make a great ruler because he enlisted many talents as soon as he decided to take back the territories his father owned (Charisma++), Started with 3000 troops and 500 horses from Yang Shao and defeated far larger enemies. Who are we to judge whether he had "True" opponents or not? He was successful and enlisted more talented officers from neutral states and convinced enemy officers to join him (Politics, Intelligence++), and his valor is pretty much unrivaled (killed 2 enemy generals in one duel, one of them he shouted and the general was so scared he fall off the horse and dead), and he rivaled the great Taishici. (Valor, leadership, War+++).

Overall good character, his characteristic is what got him (fearlessness and too arrogance).
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