The Reign of Sun Quan.

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Unread postby Zhou Tai » Sun Mar 23, 2003 3:36 pm

Stiltzken wrote:Unlike his father Sun Quan was a terrible ruler. The only reason he fought along with shu or wei was so he could get something out of it. He was great friends with Liu Xuande but attacked him with wei just so he could get Jingzhou. This also resulted in him killing Guan yu. Plus this also resulted in him gettin some of his good officers killed. Lu Meng for example.


I realise your new to the forum but im gunna go gentle compared to most people.

Terrible Ruler - It is well known that Sun Quan excelled in domestic Affairs, whilst Sun Ce was better militarily. Together with talented men such as Zhou Yu, Lu Su and Zhang Zhao, Sun Quan effectively ruled the land of Jiang Dong and turned it into a wealthy and safe area. Sun Quan received much praised from others and attracted many scholars and warriors to his land. He ruled a Kingdom not just a small area of land.

Shu and Wei - Id go forever on this... Sun Quan allied with Liu Bei in an attempt to deter Cao Cao from the Southlands. Though Cao Cao commanded an army of eight hundred thirty thousand troops, he suffered heavy casualties at the hand of Zhou Yu and Sun Quan’s armies. Liu Bei's main role was to cut off Cao Cao's retreat in no shape or form did Shu fight at Chi Bi, Zhuge Liang did not summon any Wind, Zhou Yu acquried Information from a local Fisherman whos family had been in the area for many decades.

Shu quickly took action after Chi Bi and pretty much all the spoils of war went to Liu Bei, though having nothing to do with the victory.
Wu demanded an explanation, and Zhuge stated they were borrowing Jing for a base temporarilly (sp?)Wu claimed that Jing was theres for there war efforts, and Liu Bei and Zhuge Liang promised they would "return" the Jing Province after conquering Yi...they never did.

So you can understand how pissed Sun Quan would be, therefore Liu Bei agreed to give 3 southern cities to Wu to keep them happy, the most famined - low populated areas of Jing.

To improve relations Sun Quan wanted his son to marry Guan Yu's daughter so the relationship would be better between Wu and Shu. Guan Yu stated the infamous "a Tigers Daughter for a Dogs son" quote which was a big insult and obviously refused.

Later on, Still sending envoys to Guan Yu stating Liu Beis promise to return Jing to Wu, Guan Yu was fighting Wei in the North of Jing, with supplies low and Gan Ning not around :lol: , Guan Yu attacked a Wu supply depot (Grain and such) and stole the provisions.

Sun Quan therefore betrayed yet again, launches a campaign to take back Jing, and the rest you know off. Sun Quan was historically not responsible for the execution of Guan Yu and Guan Ping. Lü Meng made that decision while Sun Quan had not even been informed of his victory.

Lu Meng died of illness not by Guan Yu's ghost :roll:

im going easy on you, Han Xin would tear you to pieces :D
What? Am I suppose to impress you with a phrase. ><
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Unread postby Funkill » Tue Apr 20, 2004 6:10 am

Later on, Still sending envoys to Guan Yu stating Liu Beis promise to return Jing to Wu, Guan Yu was fighting Wei in the North of Jing, with supplies low and Gan Ning not around , Guan Yu attacked a Wu supply depot (Grain and such) and stole the provisions.


Are you sure ? I'm not remembering Guan Yu attacked Wu's supply depot during his Jing Zhou operation. In which chapter you are referring to ?
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Unread postby Exar Kun » Tue Apr 20, 2004 2:35 pm

Funkill wrote:Are you sure ? I'm not remembering Guan Yu attacked Wu's supply depot during his Jing Zhou operation. In which chapter you are referring to ?


That's a historical.It is alleged in Wu bios that Guan Yu attacked the Wu supply depot at Xiangguan which became part of the Wu justification for their attack.
However,there is little corroborative evidence that this attack ever happened and Guan Yu's own bio disputes many things that Wu bios say from around this time so that entire issue is way up in the air as far as I'm concerned.

EDIT:as the poster below points out,a whole LOT of those reasons Zhou Tai listed are flat wrong.I'll get to it later probably.
Last edited by Exar Kun on Tue Apr 20, 2004 3:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread postby LiuBeiwasGreat » Tue Apr 20, 2004 2:40 pm

Actually alot of Zhou Tai's arguments are up for interpretation. The raid is not the only thing that is questionable but i won't get into that or else he might not be as gentle to me :lol:
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Unread postby Exar Kun » Tue Apr 20, 2004 7:39 pm

Well let me get to this now.

I'm at a loss as to what your sources are,you're mixing historical and novel information together but since you completely dismiss Kongming summoning the wind and Guan Yu's ghost,I'll assme that this is historical.

Terrible Ruler - It is well known that Sun Quan excelled in domestic Affairs, whilst Sun Ce was better militarily. Together with talented men such as Zhou Yu, Lu Su and Zhang Zhao, Sun Quan effectively ruled the land of Jiang Dong and turned it into a wealthy and safe area. Sun Quan received much praised from others and attracted many scholars and warriors to his land. He ruled a Kingdom not just a small area of land


No argument there.But exactly what was so hard about all this?And exactly what was Sun Quan's own contribution that made him excel so?Shouldn't the domestic affairs nod go to Zhang Zhao and Gu Yong rather than Sun Quan?

Shu and Wei - Id go forever on this... Sun Quan allied with Liu Bei in an attempt to deter Cao Cao from the Southlands. Though Cao Cao commanded an army of eight hundred thirty thousand troops, he suffered heavy casualties at the hand of Zhou Yu and Sun Quan’s armies. Liu Bei's main role was to cut off Cao Cao's retreat in no shape or form did Shu fight at Chi Bi, Zhuge Liang did not summon any Wind, Zhou Yu acquried Information from a local Fisherman whos family had been in the area for many decades.


1)Eight hundred and thirty...good god!No wait,that's a novel figure.The actual figure was probably more around a quarter of a million.
2)Cao Cao's defeat was due to an epidemic that ravaged his troops,the fire attack by the allies was comparatively nothing.
3)Liu Bei did fight at Chi Bi.Figures put his troop complement at 20K with Wu's at 30K,when they bother to mention Wu at all.See Wei-SGZ has this funny idea about not naming Sun Quan at all in the defeat at Chi Bi,only Liu Bei.I guess that shows who was leading at the front.

Shu quickly took action after Chi Bi and pretty much all the spoils of war went to Liu Bei, though having nothing to do with the victory.
Wu demanded an explanation, and Zhuge stated they were borrowing Jing for a base temporarilly (sp?)Wu claimed that Jing was theres for there war efforts, and Liu Bei and Zhuge Liang promised they would "return" the Jing Province after conquering Yi...they never did.


1)Since when is Jingzhou 'spoils'?The battle of Chi Bi took place for the safety of Wu,they were defending against invasion,not fighting over land.There are no spoils here,only occupied Wei territory to conquer.If these prefectures truly were spoils then they'd have been unoccupied.
2)That entire borrowing contract is nonesense.There's no historical proof whatsoever that Sun Quan 'lent' Liu Bei anything in return for all of Jing.Quan can't call for Jing to be returned to him since he never possesses it.

So you can understand how pissed Sun Quan would be, therefore Liu Bei agreed to give 3 southern cities to Wu to keep them happy, the most famined - low populated areas of Jing.


Wrong,Wu,without provocation invaded Jingzhou in 215 to seize it.Liu Bei reacted quickly and despite being menaced by Cao Cao in Hanzhong,he comes to Jing and Sun Quan accepts a peace agreement that sees 3 cities go over to Wu.They were southern cities,not particularly poor cities.If necessary,I can bring figures of the population of these cities to attest.


To improve relations Sun Quan wanted his son to marry Guan Yu's daughter so the relationship would be better between Wu and Shu. Guan Yu stated the infamous "a Tigers Daughter for a Dogs son" quote which was a big insult and obviously refused.


Refusing really is Guan Yu perogative,it's his daughter.Any diplomatic backlash would be just that,diplomatic and should be taken up with Cheng Du with envoys not in Jing with swords.

Later on, Still sending envoys to Guan Yu stating Liu Beis promise to return Jing to Wu, Guan Yu was fighting Wei in the North of Jing, with supplies low and Gan Ning not around , Guan Yu attacked a Wu supply depot (Grain and such) and stole the provisions.


Like I said earlier,this is all Wu fabrications.

Sun Quan therefore betrayed yet again, launches a campaign to take back Jing, and the rest you know off. Sun Quan was historically not responsible for the execution of Guan Yu and Guan Ping. Lü Meng made that decision while Sun Quan had not even been informed of his victory.


Wrong again,that invasion had been planned months in advance and the deal with Cao Cao long sealed.The invasion force was ready to go.How convenient that Guan Yu supposedly raids their supply depot just as the invasion is coincidentally ready.Did somebody say "foul!"?I think so,because this is Wu lies.
That invasion had the green light long before any supposed raid.

im going easy on you, Han Xin would tear you to pieces


You're dealing with me now,take off your gloves.Or better yet,call Han Xin. :wink:
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Unread postby Funkill » Wed Apr 21, 2004 5:38 am

Terrible Ruler - It is well known that Sun Quan excelled in domestic Affairs, whilst Sun Ce was better militarily. Together with talented men such as Zhou Yu, Lu Su and Zhang Zhao, Sun Quan effectively ruled the land of Jiang Dong and turned it into a wealthy and safe area. Sun Quan received much praised from others and attracted many scholars and warriors to his land. He ruled a Kingdom not just a small area of land




My personal opinion, that Sun Quan is quite a lucky ruler. He did never fight to rule Jiang Dong; his father and his borther had done this for him. He got the help from Zhou Yu, Sun Ce's best friend and advisor, then he got Lu Su and two Zhangs. These people are scholars, and they did a very good job to maintain the wealthy of the Shouthern land.

The second point is, Jiang Dong was never been a bettle field after Sun Ce's operations for decades until Dynasty Jin's General took Wu. This has been a advantages for Sun Quan to easyly ruled Jiang Dong. Jiang Dong do have a natural advantage where the Yangzhe river flows from west to east through Wu. Not like the North, where Cao Cao have to face Lord Yuan Shao in the North East, Ma Chao in the North West. Cao Cao had put much efford to maintain the political stability between Lord Yuan Shao and Ma Chao and internally The Emporor and the loyalist to the Parliament. If Sun Quan is to be that position, i think he can manage to dealt with the situation, and i'm sure he may be face the same faith with Dong Zhuo, Yuan Shao and others warlord in the Middle Land.

In other hand, Liu Bei moved from North to South and then to Yi, he had moved so many miles and yet he cant even find a base for him to call himself a WarLord. By the way, can we include him as a Warlord before he got Yi ?

Lord Sun Quan, in my opinion is not a terrible ruler, but a lucky one. He has his own reputation and he has the ability to attract heros to come to him and serve him......

By the way, he should not invade Jing, he should put full force on He Fei. Why can't he concentrate in He Fei but to order to invade Jing ?

If compare to Liu Bei, Liu Bei is a terrible ruler. He cried to get his Kingdom !!! :lol:
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Unread postby Kong Wen » Wed Apr 21, 2004 5:41 am

Funkill wrote:If compare to Liu Bei, Liu Bei is a terrible ruler. He cried to get his Kingdom !!! :lol:

I'm sure Cao Cao, Liu Bei, Sun Jian, Sun Ce, and Sun Quan would all have agreed that getting their kingdoms without fighting and killing would have been ideal. :roll:
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Unread postby Exar Kun » Wed Apr 21, 2004 1:46 pm

In other hand, Liu Bei moved from North to South and then to Yi, he had moved so many miles and yet he cant even find a base for him to call himself a WarLord. By the way, can we include him as a Warlord before he got Yi ?


Liu Bei's tenure in the north was unfortunate since victory in the north went to those who had the power and fame.The Cao and Yuan families have some fame so they can command.Liu Bei was an unknown.
But of course he can be a warlord.He had Xu didn't he?South Jing as well.

By the way, he should not invade Jing, he should put full force on He Fei. Why can't he concentrate in He Fei but to order to invade Jing ?


Simply because the Wu army stinks to high heaven on offense.They absolutely suck.Ever wonder why Wu has no real offensive victories other than sneak attacks?It's because they suck.

If compare to Liu Bei, Liu Bei is a terrible ruler. He cried to get his Kingdom !!!


Better to cry and win it through acting ability than to do nothing and have it handed to you.
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Unread postby Funkill » Thu Apr 22, 2004 5:55 am

I think I was wrong. I should put it like this : Liu Bei was a good actor, where he did cry to confuse Lu Su so that Liu Bei can still set his base in Jing Zhou and then sooner or later took over Liu Qi's place as the ruler of Jing Zhou.

In the other hand, Cao Cao has fought so many places, and end up running away from Ma Chao, retreat from Hua Yang Dao, being fooled in Han Zhong, and in the end he can't make himself emporor....

I wonder, did Cao Cao thought before to become Emporor himself ? Or rather he always like to be a Prime Minister and Lord Wei forever ?
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Unread postby LiuBeiwasGreat » Thu Apr 22, 2004 2:02 pm

Funkill wrote:I think I was wrong. I should put it like this : Liu Bei was a good actor, where he did cry to confuse Lu Su so that Liu Bei can still set his base in Jing Zhou and then sooner or later took over Liu Qi's place as the ruler of Jing Zhou.

In the other hand, Cao Cao has fought so many places, and end up running away from Ma Chao, retreat from Hua Yang Dao, being fooled in Han Zhong, and in the end he can't make himself emporor....

I wonder, did Cao Cao thought before to become Emporor himself ? Or rather he always like to be a Prime Minister and Lord Wei forever ?


Well personally i always thought that Cao Cao did want to make himself Emperor but he didn't want to do it while the land was divided. Cao Cao wanted to unite the entire land and then he would have declared himself emperor. If he did then perhaps things might have turned out diffrently and we would be reading about the mighty and noble Wei dynasty which brought peace and prosperity to the land.
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