Who is stronger, Wu or Shu?

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Who is stronger, Wu or Shu?

Unread postby Mega Zarak » Sat Jun 29, 2002 1:46 pm

The foundation of Wu's kingdom was established pretty early by Sun Ce before 200 A.D. and the Sun family had a pretty good relations with the powerful families and officials in Jiang Dong who lent their support to the Sun family.

The foundation of Shu could be considered to be properly laid only after the battle of Chi Bi when Liu Bei gained some firm footholds at Jing Zhou. Subsequently, he expanded into Yi Zhou and took Cheng Du as the capital.

At which point in history was Shu stronger than Wu? Or is Shu the weakest among the 3 kingdoms from beginning till the end??
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Unread postby Anshi » Sat Jun 29, 2002 2:24 pm

There is no point at which Shu, as a nation, is stronger than Wu.
Shu was always either too spread out, or didn't have enough talented generals.
Maybe, in 217, if they pulled all their forces out of Yi and attacked Wu they could have won a few battles, but they would have lost eventually. Not to mention Cao Cao would have taken Yizhou, and reunite the country...
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Unread postby Zhou Gongjin » Sat Jun 29, 2002 4:17 pm

Some statistics, during the 3 Kingdoms formation period:

Shu
280,000 households
940,000 people
40,000 bureaucrats
100,000 soldiers

Wu
520,000 households
2,300,000 people
40,000 bureaucrats
230,000 soldiers
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Unread postby Mega Zarak » Sat Jun 29, 2002 4:24 pm

Zhou Gongjin wrote:Some statistics, during the 3 Kingdoms formation period:

Shu
280,000 households
940,000 people
40,000 bureaucrats
100,000 soldiers

Wu
520,000 households
2,300,000 people
40,000 bureaucrats
230,000 soldiers


Thanks for the stats Mr. Zhou! :mrgreen:
How about generals?? Strength can be measured in terms of talents too. Quantity doesn't matter all the time.
Last edited by Mega Zarak on Sun Jun 30, 2002 4:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread postby Anshi » Sat Jun 29, 2002 5:20 pm

Great Deer wrote:Thanks for the stats Mr. Zhou! :mrgreen:
How about generals?? Strength can be measured in terms of talents too. Quality doesn't matter all the time.


:shock: I think you mean quantity doesn't matter all the time, not quality.
Wu had better generals than Shu, despite what LGZ makes people believe. Like I said before, Shu was probably strongest in 217 or so, and if it would have led an offensive against Wu then, it could have won a few battles before losing, but that would be pointless.
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Unread postby Zhang Liao17 » Sat Jun 29, 2002 10:11 pm

Shu was an aggresive kingdom and Wu was more passive and defensive. For this reason many think Shu was stronger but they were not. After the invasion of Yizhou, Shu only failed in its attacks, ultimately wasting their countries talent and resources. By being conservative Wu was able to build up to be stronger and it also helped them survive longer. Wu's only mistake was waiting to long and allowing Jin to destroy Shu while they sat with hands folded.
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Unread postby Han Xin » Sun Jun 30, 2002 4:36 am

IMO, Shu were at it peak immediately after they captured HanZhong from Cao Cao. After the death of FaZheng, then Liu Bei, they start going downhill.
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Unread postby Starscream » Sun Jun 30, 2002 5:44 am

Great Deer wrote:Strength can be measured in terms of talents too. Quantity doesn't matter all the time.


Quantity did matter to a large extent then. There were extensive measures made by any of the states to grab civilians and to replace their depleting populations, by any means, more people means more army and greater labour force, etc...Hence, if Wu had greater numerical advantage then, it means that it is stronger than Shu... :roll:
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Unread postby Jimayo » Sun Jun 30, 2002 11:36 am

Cai Yan wrote:
Great Deer wrote:Strength can be measured in terms of talents too. Quantity doesn't matter all the time.


Quantity did matter to a large extent then. There were extensive measures made by any of the states to grab civilians and to replace their depleting populations, by any means, more people means more army and greater labour force, etc...Hence, if Wu had greater numerical advantage then, it means that it is stronger than Shu... :roll:


If that's the case then why didn't Yuan Shao whoop Cao Cao?
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Unread postby Anshi » Sun Jun 30, 2002 4:19 pm

Jimayo Oyamitch wrote:If that's the case then why didn't Yuan Shao whoop Cao Cao?


That's completely different...not talking about battles here. The thread is about strength as a nation.
Additionally, Cao Cao had most of the largest cities in China and probably had more people in his area than Yuan Shao. He was just outnumbered at that one battle, Guandu.
Also someone said Wu was a passive country who just wanted to sit back and defend, that's crap. They had two options for expansion: Cao Cao in the north, and various weak opponents in the west. Sun Quan managed to beat Cao Cao's army only once besides Chibi, all other times he was defeated. So they took back Jing instead. Someone who is passive and defensive doesn't constantly send tens of thousands of troops into one area trying to take it year after year, they concentrate on defense instead.
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