Who is stronger, Wu or Shu?

[SunXia]

That's specualtion though!! You can't guarantee that!! Plus Sun Ce was the leader, Guan Yu wasn't!!

[Sun Fin]

That's specualtion though!! You can't guarantee that!! Plus Sun Ce was the leader, Guan Yu wasn't!!

O it is certainly speculation but it would have been a very different Wu that faced that situation to the one that did.

I think Guan Yu's reputation gave him influnce on China that his skills didn't justify however I still think his survival would have changed history. Thats the whole reason we have the What If thread. What would have happened if this person survived because there were so many important people who died early.

[SunXia]

Anyway, my argument was originally that there is a lot more to the Three Kingdoms than just that battles involved, there was a lot of politics going on as well!!

At this point, Shu and Wu's relations had suffered already!! There is nothing wrong with Wu going and allying with Wei to get something they wanted, Wu and Shu had previously allied as well before relations soured over land to be given back!! they were a legitimate kingdom in their own right and proved their own resourcefulness!!

[Zhuanyong]

I choose Wu as the stronger of the two. I'll list my own reasons below -- I believe Shu was strong in its own right but, Wu had an advantage in my opinion.

1) Lu Meng taking Jing, he was instrumental along with Lu Xun in taking Guan Yu's head and causing permit rancor in Liu Bei and Zhang Fei

2) Yi Ling, regardless of the fire attack. They were the victors of this battle that pretty caused the depravity of spirit Liu Bei towards the end of his life.

3) Zhang Fei's death, I believe this partially to be caused by the events of Jing and how Zhang Fei treated his subordinates afterwards. His head was then brought to Sun Quan in surrender.

4) Chi Bi, it really was Wu's plan that led to the victory that pushed Cao Cao back.

5) Wu outlasted Shu, of course this was in part because they were not willing to fight against Wei at the time and Shu continually lost campaign after campaign until they eventually corroded from the inside. You can say they wisely stayed out of trouble.

Of course, there are other victories such as those that Lu Meng had successfully against Wei. I believe that Wu was always second best after Jing and could never catch up or even get close to what Wei had.

Wu didn't have a five generals group unless you count the Magnificent Five i.e. Sun Jian, Huang Gai, Cheng Pu, and two others. But they did have some of the best military strategist/generals of the time i.e. Zhou Yu, Lu Meng, & Lu Xun.

[sada626]

当然是吴国最为强盛了，蜀国只是后起之秀，吴国由三代领导人经营很长时间了已经。

[TigerTally]

Welcome, sada626.

当然是吴国最为强盛了，蜀国只是后起之秀，吴国由三代领导人经营很长时间了已经。

Ah... since this is an English forum, I think I shall translate that for you.

"Of course it is Wu state that was the strongest, Shu was only an up-and-coming man. Wu state had been operated by her 3 generations of leadership for a long time already."

I do agree with Wu being the stronger, but I didn't see enough evidence in your statement. For if longer operation means a stronger power, then the Han court would not fall. Being a coming man doesn't prevent one from being stronger at later time either. BTW, you should at least specify which period of time you are talking about, like before or after Liu Bei's lost of Jing 荊 province (strictly speaking Liu Bei 's party was not called Shu by that time, but I am using the wider meaning here) or the Battle of Yiling 夷陵.

EDIT: It would be nice if you could enhance your statement by more evidence, like what Zhuanyong had done in the above post, and preferably in English.

Wu didn't have a five generals group unless you count the Magnificent Five i.e. Sun Jian, Huang Gai, Cheng Pu, and two others.

What on earth was that?

[Sun Fin]

Someone, possibly Koei, thought that if Shu had the Tiger General's Wu should have a group as well.

[Lord Yang Jiahua]

I hate to say this, WU, wu was stronger....

Tch, they just were politically and militarily, the only thing they had was some succession squabbles, but other than that, no eunnuchs ruining the court untill Sun Hao, maybe a Sun Jun and sun chen, who both eventually got their just desserts, but nothing like the undermining influences of Huang Hao in shu, or the incompetences of a Jiang Wei, well ok maybe not sending enough troops to Zhuge Dan, but Yu Quan still died heroically there, and wei/jin never could beat them untill the very end.

Shu also had a major size disadvatage both in territory and millitary numbers.

[Zhuanyong]

Wu didn't have a five generals group unless you count the Magnificent Five i.e. Sun Jian, Huang Gai, Cheng Pu, and two others.

What on earth was that?

Taken from the relationship section of Sun Jian's page on Kongming's Archives --

Cheng Pu, Han Dang, Huang Gai, Sun Jian, Zu Mao (Magnificent Five)

http://kongming.net/encyclopedia/Sun-Jian

Were you making a joke?

[TigerTally]

Didn't heard of such name before, not in SGZ, not in ROTK and not even in any of the KOEI games. I thought you made the name up aand found it a bit funny, but it seems not to be the case.

http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/index. ... cent-five/

This piece of misleading information in the encyclopedia may need to be amended.